The Steam whine thread :)

[Burning]

Right, so this is another game i thus can't buy. I've spent about 5000€ on games over the course of the past years... sad that you guys actually don't want my money.

I had really been looking forward to getting this game, but I WILL NOT be FORCED TO INSTALL the F...RIENDLY PIECE OF S...PYWARE called STEAM.

If you want it to be bought, please use some distribution portal that is not solely targeted at ripping off customers. With steam, the terms of service at least are non fraudulent, you get what you pay for... you bind yourself to installing spyware as long as you want to play games via steam. Regarding Origin: EA's terms of service are actually ILLEGAL in Germany and Austria, so much for that.

Paradox, don't make the same mistake as the music industry... please! We have seen where that goes.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

Right, so this is another game i thus can't buy. I've spent about 5000€ on games over the course of the past years... sad that you guys actually don't want my money.

I had really been looking forward to getting this game, but I WILL NOT be FORCED TO INSTALL the F...RIENDLY PIECE OF S...PYWARE called STEAM.

If you want it to be bought, please use some distribution portal that is not solely targeted at ripping off customers. With steam, the terms of service at least are non fraudulent, you get what you pay for... you bind yourself to installing spyware as long as you want to play games via steam. Regarding Origin: EA's terms of service are actually ILLEGAL in Germany and Austria, so much for that.

Paradox, don't make the same mistake as the music industry... please! We have seen where that goes.

To put this bluntly, this game exists because of the platform that Steam provides it. It's a very niche title that would have little to no chance of getting into retail locations and even less of a chance of recouping the costs associated with that sort of publishing. Steam and other digital distribution services offer a way to drastically reduce the cost to publish a game and provide exposure to a larger assortment of games then a retail location could ever hope to. You may not like it for whatever reason and while I may not agree with you it's certainly your right to dislike it, trying to describe this as a mistake from a business perspective is ignorant at best, while they may be deprived of your purchase and a handful of others there simply aren't a million people who are going to want to buy this game and those are the sorts of numbers required to make retail distribution worth it, especially since there's a large and growing proportion of the market that's buying through digital distribution networks instead of retail. Oh and this would affect the price of the game as the cut from retail and distribution would demand an increase in price, this alone would probably cut the number of people willing to try this game out by a larger margin then those who simply cannot stand steam.

 

[Burning]

You may not like it for whatever reason and while I may not agree with you it's certainly your right to dislike it, trying to describe this as a mistake from a business perspective is ignorant at best, while they may be deprived of your purchase and a handful of others there simply aren't a million people who are going to want to buy this game and those are the sorts of numbers required to make retail distribution worth it, especially since there's a large and growing proportion of the market that's buying through digital distribution networks instead of retail.

To put this bluntly: You have missed the topic. This isn't about digital distribution(DD) at all. The advantages of DD over box-sales are obvious, they are just a more effective form of sales. Ignoring the Internet as way of distribution would simply be silly

To put this bluntly, this game exists because of the platform that Steam provides it. It's a very niche title that would have little to no chance of getting into retail locations and even less of a chance of recouping the costs associated with that sort of publishing. Steam and other digital distribution services offer a way to drastically reduce the cost to publish a game and provide exposure to a larger assortment of games then a retail location could ever hope to.

Oh, digital distribution is OK, I've got no problem with it, and we've used that kind of publishing for games i was involved in, too. There is a huge number of DD platforms out there which are DRM free. It's OK to use a client to install a game, but i refuse to run some background program, just to be allowed to play the games i bought. Other distribution platforms such as gamersgate, which has been widely used by Paradox in the past, do not rely on DRM. There are a lot of alternatives.
Yes, i know, i can buy this game via gamersgate, but what's the benefit? I still would have to install steam to play it.

Oh and this would affect the price of the game as the cut from retail and distribution would demand an increase in price, this alone would probably cut the number of people willing to try this game out by a larger margin then those who simply cannot stand steam.

Oh, paying 10€ more for this game would be alright, but this way it simply won't be bought by a lot of people. The issue is that you can either accept steam, or... nothing. Steam-only sales are just silly.

 

[Gibsnag]

To put this bluntly: You have missed the topic. This isn't about digital distribution(DD) at all. The advantages of DD over box-sales are obvious, they are just a more effective form of sales. Ignoring the Internet as way of distribution would simply be silly

No, you have missed the point. Steam provides APIs which help small dev teams reduce their dev time, on top of all the infrastructure advantages that a platform like Steam provides.

With regards to lots of people avoiding the game due to Steam, I suspect that you are overestimating the size of the Anti-Steam crowd.

 

[Burning]

Steam provides APIs which help small dev teams reduce their dev time, on top of all the infrastructure advantages that a platform like Steam provides.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I've also used their bug reporting system, which is a pain in the a...
Ultimately, the outcome is the same, unfortunately.

With regards to lots of people avoiding the game due to Steam, I suspect that you are overestimating the size of the Anti-Steam crowd.

I hope not.

 

[Oogh]

but i refuse to run some background program, just to be allowed to play the games i bought.

Seriously what harm does, in this case steam, do when it's running in the background? The memory usage is minimal, unless you have a very old computer and every kb of ram is precious.

 

[Burning]

Seriously what harm does, in this case steam, do when it's running in the background? The memory usage is minimal, unless you have a very old computer and every kb of ram is precious.

It constantly monitors activities on that computer. What you do, what you play, how long, with who. What applications you have installed, what programs you launch. The data collected is used for marketing. Great, right?

 

[General Baker]

Are you saying that game marketing orientated around our gaming preferences is bad?

Frankly, I trust Valve enough to not give half a shit about the conspiracy crap, while I would reject a government's efforts to do the same. There's a difference between a game company and an all-powerful national authority

 

[Amur_Tiger]

It constantly monitors activities on that computer. What you do, what you play, how long, with who. What applications you have installed, what programs you launch. The data collected is used for marketing. Great, right?

Welcome to the internet? I hope you don't use any google services either. The information you're describing, metrics, is a fairly common thing for online services of any sort and as a few have mentioned you can always run these things in offline mode.

 

[Burning]

Welcome to the internet?

Thank you SO much for welcoming me to the Internet, you are absolutely awesome! I guess I've been there a few years ahead of you, but still, thank you SO much.

The information you're describing, metrics,

Oh, Steam/Origin indeed also collect simple metrics. However, that's just a small part of what's collected. If it was just for metrics, i would not dislike that so much. You don't earn money by collecting metrics (at least not unless you are doing this on a global scale with hundreds of millions of hits per day). What Facebook and Steam earn their money from are personal profiles, which are then processed for further marketing. That's also the cause why eg. on Facebook, games/applications are usually free. They are not financed by advertisement directly, but mainly used to gain access to that profile data.

If you like, I can tell you a bit more on this, I know quite a number of great papers on that topic you might be interested in reading, if you really care about data usage in social networks. You don't really expect Steam to earn all that money by getting a few Euros/Dollars/Cents from each gamesale, do you?

you can always run these things in offline mode.

You still need to have steam installed and running... and you have to activate games with steam. To get updates or install games, you again HAVE to switch to online mode. So, what's the point? Data does not go bad by being stored for a few hours or days.

Point is, you can deactivate Javascript, use ad-blocking tools, not use certain services, but when trying to buy a game like this, you are not given a choice. As long as I've got a choice, I'm fine. Maybe you don't care, I do.

 

[Down]

I can't believe there are people here defending Steam spying on us because Google does it. They just altered their privacy policy very recently and it is a good idea to try to not use Google services when possible anyway. I use startpage as a search engine now which is basically anonymous googling.

What worries me more is not that they spy on me but that pretty much no one else tries to avoid it. Think about what the situation could be like in 20 or so years. Google or Facebook or other internet firms could know everything about everyone. They could literally control the political process through blackmail.

Sorry for the semi off topic

 

[Amur_Tiger]

Oh, Steam/Origin indeed also collect simple metrics. However, that's just a small part of what's collected. If it was just for metrics, i would not dislike that so much. You don't earn money by collecting metrics (at least not unless you are doing this on a global scale with hundreds of millions of hits per day). What Facebook and Steam earn their money from are personal profiles, which are then processed for further marketing. That's also the cause why eg. on Facebook, games/applications are usually free. They are not financed by advertisement directly, but mainly used to gain access to that profile data.

If you like, I can tell you a bit more on this, I know quite a number of great papers on that topic you might be interested in reading, if you really care about data usage in social networks. You don't really expect Steam to earn all that money by getting a few Euros/Dollars/Cents from each gamesale, do you?

So the evil plan behind Valve's use of profile data is to advertise to you more effectively? I suppose I have different expectations on how much effort people will put out to advertise to me these days. If you have any specific examples of the type of data that they're using and spreading and for what purpose go ahead and share it but honestly I'm not really worried about Steam's ability to record what sort of computer setup I have, or what games I play, or anything else on there.

I can't believe there are people here defending Steam spying on us because Google does it. They just altered their privacy policy very recently and it is a good idea to try to not use Google services when possible anyway. I use startpage as a search engine now which is basically anonymous googling.

What worries me more is not that they spy on me but that pretty much no one else tries to avoid it. Think about what the situation could be like in 20 or so years. Google or Facebook or other internet firms could know everything about everyone. They could literally control the political process through blackmail.

Sorry for the semi off topic

Given the amount of catch-up Google and Valve would have to do to match the amount of political influence other major companies have over the political process I'm not going to worry about this.

 

[s1234567890m]

Yes, I'm aware of that. I've also used their bug reporting system, which is a pain in the a...
Ultimately, the outcome is the same, unfortunately.


I hope not.

Seeing as 80-90% of paradox customers use steam, i think you are over estimating how big it is.
So tell me why should paradox focus on anything other than the clear majority of there sales?
As a footnote there are 20+ other DD sites that require work to make sure patches are compatible

As well this game runs without steam running....

 

[General Baker]

I think one of the main points is that, as far as the developers are concerned, they don't have a choice in the matter. Steam's network APIs and distribution network make it the most efficient and least time- and cash-consuming method of producing and selling the game for them, as they've mentioned in other threads and elsewhere.

And on the subject of Steam making money out of user-sourced information: who gives a monkeys? It's not as though they're selling our identities, our personal information, our credit card details, or anything else. They're selling the average consumer's data, which can be used by the computer industry to output stuff that's more relevant than it might otherwise be. And we wouldn't bother selling that ourselves, anyway, would we?

I think we're considering this from an overly-consumer perspective, and it seems anti-Steamers have a beef with high quality market information. If you're still adamant on not using Steam, why are you even bringing the discussion to this forum? This is a Steamworks-based game, and I'd imagine it'd take a bit of work to recreate the mechanics if the Steam part of the source was removed; this thread, I reckon, is being prolonged in vain.

 

[Down]

The thread is very likely a waste of time, but I still would like the developers to know that the decision to require steam is what cost them my sale. I hope the trend doesn't continue for other Paradox games.

 

[unmerged(81596)]

It'll be a cold day in hell when I buy an entirely optional luxury product that doesn't conform to the restrictions I set, one of which is no monopolistic shovelware- if I wanted that I'd buy a PS360 and be done with it. If it's something I can't do without I have to put up with it, but for something like a game? It is not a massive privilege that I am allowed to pay for a game, it is a massive privilege if I deign to part with my disposable income which I could just as easily choose to spend on something else- Wasteland 2, a few GOGs, the indiefort bundle; a curry and a beer even.

As a footnote there are 20+ other DD sites that require work to make sure patches are compatible

Heh, still parroting that line?

Paradox developed games pre CK2: press update butan on launch window, download identical patch, install. DD vendor irrelevant. Most commercial products and a lot of freeware use unified updaters too. It's an artificial limitation introduced by steam itself (by barring external updaters and the client's non standard file monitoring behaviour) to drive people towards steamworks integration, same as the dlc handling restrictions- now if you want a single patch or single dlc handler you need to use steam but that's because of steam's own restrictions, not any intrinsic factor.

Oh and this would affect the price of the game as the cut from retail and distribution would demand an increase in price, this alone would probably cut the number of people willing to try this game out by a larger margin then those who simply cannot stand steam.

What you are actually arguing for is that Paradox sells DD copies directly- an excellent idea. After all if steam chops out retail and distribution costs (somewhat) then Paradox selling them directly cuts out the (r)etail and distribution costs pretty much entirely. Frankly, that is what every single publisher ought to do as it means that no-one, not (r)etailers nor steam can dictate how a title is sold and the publisher gets near 100% of the cash.

 

[unmerged(111363)]

I enjoy Steam. 7 years back I thought is was a weird thing. Not anymore.

You thank the people on internet for having this as a new standard.

Starting 12 years ago when average people starting going online, lot's of things including Games were starting to get stolen at a gigantic rate.

 

[flame7926]

Why are people so defensive about their personal information?

 

[Weijun]

Too bad it is Steam only. I was looking forward to buying it. But I will not buy any game that requires steam. If you ever put it on Gamersgate, without steam , let me know, as I would like to buy this most interesting game. But not if it means steam.

Same here. In general, I like to support Paradox, but icon or not, I refuse to buy Steam only releases. I will never create a Steam account, nor will I run the Steam client on my machine, so paying for a game I cannot play makes no sense. (I made that mistake once with Magicka - never again!) As with Valen, if you ever release the game on GamersGate (i.e. no Steam required), then I will buy it.

 

[Burning]

They're selling the average consumer's data, which can be used by the computer industry to output stuff that's more relevant than it might otherwise be.

There is a huge different between metrics/average user data like hardware stats, bought games, connection bandwidth, latency, and personal data.

It's not as though they're selling our identities, our personal information, our credit card details, or anything else.

Well, they are selling your personal identity and thus your personal information. You credit card details are forwarded to companies who check if you might be able to actually pay, if you are in dept(i am not, for that matter), what you buy from where, luxury goods, etc. Eg. people switching from their current brand of beverage to a cheaper one are indeed analyzer and let some alarm bells ring somewhere, because you are likely to have financial difficulties ahead.

Why are people so defensive about their personal information?

Well, do you have nothing to hide? OK, so tell me, do you have HIV? Are you engaged? Divorced? How old are you? Are you colored, asian, white? Have you been unemployed over the past years? Have you ever been late with paying dept or invoices? If yes, with what company? What did you buy there and why?

Let me guess, you don't like that information to be available to a third party. But you do seem to have no problem giving just that information to some company which will do whatever they like with that information. See the issue? Think about what you are doing online. People have lost their jobs because of less. People in central Europe have actually been shot or imprisoned about 25 years back... People in china and many other nations TODAY are imprisoned because of governments using THESE companies for information collection. People are actually sitting in jail in some backwater country, because of what they published via services like steam. People are actually being accused of crimes by the US, because of what they wrote on twitter.

And no, this is no paranoia, it's reality... sadly.

I think we're considering this from an overly-consumer perspective,

Well, we are customers, ... If you buy a car, what do you think about while trying to lower the price?

• You think about how the owner of the company the sales guy is employed by earns less money on that car.
• You think about how the you can spend that extra money. Perhaps you will buy that new navigation system or invite your finance/wife/girlfriend to an awesome evening at the cinema?

Cmon, be serious .

and it seems anti-Steamers have a beef with high quality market information.

Oh, I'm just interested in the topic and am pretty sure most numbers I know are very crude, but do outline some basic issues.

If you're still adamant on not using Steam, why are you even bringing the discussion to this forum?

Because we are interested in being able to play games in the future! If nobody says anything, what is going to happen? Then we will in the future see just steam-only games from paradox. I like many of the games published by paradox, but it would be very sad if i was forced to no longer buy those games.

This is a Steamworks-based game, and I'd imagine it'd take a bit of work to recreate the mechanics if the Steam part of the source was removed;

I've got no problem in paying 30+€ instead of 20, or waiting a few months more . Quality takes time.