The State of the Meta

[Less2]

Question: if you accept vassalization, what can they do about it? It's not like vassals pay tribute to their overlord or are actually forced to support them in wars. If you are vassalized then your overlord probably promptly collapses with their awful 0 energy economy and you quickly take the lead, yes?

That said I expect Stellaris will always have issues like this. It's clearly not aiming to be the next StarCraft. Rushes have always been effective in RTSs and require a lot more skill to beat than the start. Even more skill to avoid without crippling yourself if they never come.

 

[Jiav]

Question: if you accept vassalization, what can they do about it? It's not like vassals pay tribute to their overlord or are actually forced to support them in wars. If you are vassalized then your overlord probably promptly collapses with their awful 0 energy economy and you quickly take the lead, yes?

That said I expect Stellaris will always have issues like this. It's clearly not aiming to be the next StarCraft. Rushes have always been effective in RTSs and require a lot more skill to beat than the start. Even more skill to avoid without crippling yourself if they never come.

accept vassalization from whom? You cannot accept any request of such sort if you are already a vassal or tribute.

 

[tinculin]

What about picking Life-Seeded and spamming fortresses? Even if your pops are stolen, they are useless on other planets and actually will help to kill the attacker's economy.

If you spam fortresses then you ruin your own game & as already pointed out, it’s wuite common for rush builds to go life seeded as this allows them to steal pops and not worry about their preferred climate type.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

From what I'm reading the goal would be reduce the effectiveness of the early 'all or nothing' rush but in some way that does not alter mid-late game balance and options?

if so, this can't be rocket science to solve, can it? Wouldn't it be so simple as to buff the home system defense in some meaningful way? Maybe start the home Starbase with a handful of maintenance free Defense Platforms already? Or a RoF buff when defending your home system? Or some combination?

I'm sure there must be dozens of similar ways that can easily solve the immediate issue of defeating the equivalent of the 6-Zergling rush.

 

[Less2]

accept vassalization from whom? You cannot accept any request of such sort if you are already a vassal or tribute.

They are demanding vassalization in order to get the CB when you refuse. So just don't refuse.

 

[serpentskirt]

That option is three picks in, and the prereq picks are worthless in the early game.

Hold on for the moment. The other poster has written this:

Defensive armies won’t help- this tactic typically employs use of nihilist acquisition which means your pops are stolen without invading armies being required

Looks like attacker needs to unlock first AP, so picking harmony traditions should not be a problem? Or that other poster meant that everyone plays as Barbaric Despoilers?

 

[Jiav]

They are demanding vassalization in order to get the CB when you refuse. So just don't refuse.

they demand tributize, a vassalization request is literally useless to them

 

[serpentskirt]

If you spam fortresses then you ruin your own game

I don't know, nobody said "you will still lose the war if you spam fortresses". Better to be crippled than dead, I would imagine.

I don't think salting one opponent just so that he doesn't win in a game with 10+ players is what people want to do with their time.

Hmm, if enough people will start to use it, maybe the meta will shift? Like, now there is not much risks rushing the next guy, but if it'll be possible to just demolish everything and sell all the pops, then less people will be doing rushes?

 

[HamHamJ]

Yeah, can't you counter this by just accepting the tributary and then once they have like a dozen tributaries you all just declare independence simultaneously?

 

[Jiav]

Yeah, can't you counter this by just accepting the tributary and then once they have like a dozen tributaries you all just declare independence simultaneously?

its not possible to declare independence simultaneously, you can only declare one at a time, if your overlord is already at war with one vassal other vassals cannot declare independence as well, i suppose because they enter the war against the uprising vassal and auto side with the overlord

or you need someone who is willing to guarantee your independence

if you have no one who is willing to do that, it wont work, paradox coding does not allow a simultaneously uprising of more than one vassal/tribute at a time without anyone someone guaranteeing the independence on EVERY vassal/tribute

also while the war is going on you are still going to pay your overlord your tribute tax, which is beyond silly, but thats how it works ingame

both issues have been reported to paradox about a year ago, still nothing has been about it

also if you uprise your overlords gains automatic claims on all of your systems, meaning you will lose everything if he wants you to

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the only option on how to skip paying tax to your overlord is to release your own planets as your own vassals, they will join your overlord as vassals instead of tributaries

this is however very cheesy

 

[serpentskirt]

the only option on how to skip paying tax to your overlord is to release your own planets as your own vassals, they will join your overlord as vassals instead of tributaries

The wiki says it's 25% of minerals and energy income. Should be possible to dodge paying by abandoning production of these whatsoever. Make a lot of food, sell it and buy what you need from market?

 

[Jiav]

The wiki says it's 25% of minerals and energy income. Should be possible to dodge paying by abandoning production of these whatsoever. Make a lot of food, sell it and buy what you need from market?

thats entirely off topic, its not a valid counter

and no it doesnt work, not only are you limited by food districts you also have to pay 30% market fee, most empires already struggle with the -25%

 

[SpectralShade]

The market is the problem. Problems will continue to cascade from it as long as it is kept.

 

[GreatSword]

How about locking Vassalisation/Tributary behind a tech? Colonial Centralization (tier 2) for example

 

[HamHamJ]

its not possible to declare independence simultaneously, you can only declare one at a time, if your overlord is already at war with one vassal other vassals cannot declare independence as well, i suppose because they enter the war against the uprising vassal and auto side with the overlord

or you need someone who is willing to guarantee your independence

if you have no one who is willing to do that, it wont work, paradox coding does not allow a simultaneously uprising of more than one vassal/tribute at a time without anyone someone guaranteeing the independence on EVERY vassal/tribute

also while the war is going on you are still going to pay your overlord your tribute tax, which is beyond silly, but thats how it works ingame

both issues have been reported to paradox about a year ago, still nothing has been about it

also if you uprise your overlords gains automatic claims on all of your systems, meaning you will lose everything if he wants you to

---
the only option on how to skip paying tax to your overlord is to release your own planets as your own vassals, they will join your overlord as vassals instead of tributaries

this is however very cheesy

In MP it should be trivial to get your overlords's main rival to support everyone.

Retool your economy to focus on food and trade for consumer goods and, sell those on the market and then buy alloys. Take your shot when it comes.

 

[BeavisDillhole]

Is this still the best MP strategy? Or has something changed by now?

 

[LeanneKaos]

How about locking Vassalisation/Tributary behind a tech? Colonial Centralization (tier 2) for example

It used to be locked behind a tradition. Not entirely sure why it isn't anymore.

 

[LeanneKaos]

its not possible to declare independence simultaneously, you can only declare one at a time, if your overlord is already at war with one vassal other vassals cannot declare independence as well, i suppose because they enter the war against the uprising vassal and auto side with the overlord

According to the wiki, Tributaries don't enter war with their overlord automatically. Is the wiki wrong on this?