The state of technology

[SpawnRaider]

So I've come back to the game after a few years. I've played some campaigns and I've noticed that everywhere in the world almost everyone is always at the same tech. By 1820, nearly the entire world is always caught up in tech and the biggest laggards are maybe behind by 2 tech at most. I think it's crazy that isolated African and North American tribes are always keeping up with the Europeans without issue. This was an era where Europeans quickly began outpacing the rest of the world in technology and productivity but that doesn't seem to be represented by the game at all anymore. Is this WAD?

 

[AvengedK1ng]

This has been the case for ages
Euros will get ahead and give neighbour bonuses and institutions to non euros, euros will fill all ideas out but non euros will not but will still have a military strong enough to resist expeditionary forces

 

[holyvigil]

The current intention of the devs is that Europe is ahead of the rest of the world on average 1-2 techs.

It can certain situations like Portugal in Goa awkward.

 

[merilessj]

Hot take. I miss the old tech groups and the westernization mechanic. Yeah it was a pain in the ass, but it did end up rewarding you with western unit pips

 

[csward53]

It sucks and it is unrealistic. There's a reason Europe was so dominate in this time period and part of it was technical superiority.

 

[Sete]

Portugal only had Artillery and ship building advantage in India.
They were very advanced(India), and its erroneous to think otherwise.

 

[Nostalgium]

Despite tech parity, Western units are simply better in the late-game, Europe has the best trade nodes, and the dev density in Europe is immense compared to anywhere else in the world, rivalled only by India, so their economic situation is also much better. As institutions spawn there, they will usually be ahead on those, meaning that even if ROTW is on tech parity, they've spent more monarch points to get there: Monarch points Europeans can use to fill idea groups, dev, stay on high stab with, conquer with, etc. Since they're also likely to get the techs first, they also tend to ramp up innovation much faster than ROTW, leading to all other power costs being reduced. The European tech advantage doesn't come from being ahead on the big tech numbers, but having to exert less effort to get there. This means that Europeans will almost always be practically ahead, even if there is theoretical parity.

This era laid the fundaments for the enormeous gulf between Europe and elsewhere that we see in the Victorian age, but the gap - asides from artillery and navy, as @Sete points out - only started to meaningfully widen so far into the late-game that it's honestly difficult to simulate in EU4. Designing the tech system around creating a gap over time will lead to Europeans being unrealistically far ahead too soon, and making lategame tech penalties harsher if you lack the institutions (Industrialism, Enlightenment) won't really do much to alleviate the problem, as successful nations can just eat the penalty with +5 advisors, innovation, idea groups and so on at that point. Now, if Victoria 3 somehow fails to simulate it, I'll have issues, but for the era EU4 strives to capture, the tech system is honestly fine. Tech is on par, but Europeans can do more other stuff with the surplus.

... We need tech groups for ships and artillery though. Please.

 

[Ferdinand_Bardamu]

There is quite a big tech difference in say 1550 because those in Asia/Africa are only just starting to work on colonialism whereas the Europeans have just gotten Printing Press.

However, I find the tech difference diminish to near zero (for Asians at least) come the 1 700s. Ironically, the 1700s onwards where when the Europeans had their greatest technology advantage actually.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

euros will fill all ideas out but non euros will not

Sounds like precisely the opposite of what we want.

Would perhaps dissociating (at least partially) Ideas from Technology perhaps allow for a better portrayal of European technological advantage without breaking the game and turning the ROTW unplayable?

 

[arosenberger14]

The EU tech system in general needs to be burnt to the ground and re-designed from the foundation up... but that's not happening until EU5 so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[AvengedK1ng]

The EU tech system in general needs to be burnt to the ground and re-designed from the foundation up... but that's not happening until EU5 so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I'd give for tech trees like in IR

 

[Sete]

What I'd give for tech trees like in IR

I dont know how the IR tech trees are, could you provide an example?

 

[Nostalgium]

There you go. Some increase research efficiency, others improve relations, some integration speed, province loyalty etc etc. Finally, there is a Casus Belli. Some techs have two paths to get them. You don't need both Hereditary Ambassadorship and Diplomatic Apologetics to get Symbolic Victory, but you DO need both Symbolic Victory and Allied Representatives to get Winning Land by the Spear.

This was only one of several trees, and each gave you distinct bonuses. Unless you seriously min-maxed your pop ratios, there was no way of getting even close to every tech on each run, so they served as a kind of baked-in idea set as well. Some nations had unique techs as well, like Rome herself having some which gave bonuses to construction and ship boarding. Asides from being a bit of a pain to navigate, it was a great system, which created some serious replayablility for the same country.

 

[Sete]

There you go. Some increase research efficiency, others improve relations, some integration speed, province loyalty etc etc. Finally, there is a Casus Belli. Some techs have two paths to get them. You don't need both Hereditary Ambassadorship and Diplomatic Apologetics to get Symbolic Victory, but you DO need both Symbolic Victory and Allied Representatives to get Winning Land by the Spear.

This was only one of several trees, and each gave you distinct bonuses. Unless you seriously min-maxed your pop ratios, there was no way of getting even close to every tech on each run, so they served as a kind of baked-in idea set as well. Some nations had unique techs as well, like Rome herself having some which gave bonuses to construction and ship boarding. Asides from being a bit of a pain to navigate, it was a great system, which created some serious replayablility for the same country.

Definitely better than waiting for mana.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Definitely better than waiting for mana.

And allows specialisation, Portugal can have good ships and trade without looking at gaining additional subjects
IR's tributaries would also work great at portugese protectorate, which could overtime become vassals if tributaries for long enough

 

[Atlanteax]

So I've come back to the game after a few years. I've played some campaigns and I've noticed that everywhere in the world almost everyone is always at the same tech. By 1820, nearly the entire world is always caught up in tech and the biggest laggards are maybe behind by 2 tech at most. I think it's crazy that isolated African and North American tribes are always keeping up with the Europeans without issue. This was an era where Europeans quickly began outpacing the rest of the world in technology and productivity but that doesn't seem to be represented by the game at all anymore. Is this WAD?

Devs need to increase Tech costs by 50% and Development by 50% or 100%.

Right now the AI is too easily keeping up in technology and otherwise keep developing middle of nowhere provinces into 20 40 20 wool provinces.

At least allow for ‘razing’ of these provinces; I realize EU4 is meant to be sandbox-ish, but it should also be plausible.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Devs need to increase Tech costs by 50% and Development by 50% or 100%.

Wouldn't change a thing for the AI. It will already gladly pay 999 for a tech or waste MP deving because it generates too much Monarch Power and barely spends it outside teaching and deving.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Devs need to increase Tech costs by 50% and Development by 50% or 100%.

Right now the AI is too easily keeping up in technology and otherwise keep developing middle of nowhere provinces into 20 40 20 wool provinces.

You know that'd effect the player too right?

At least allow for ‘razing’ of these provinces; I realize EU4 is meant to be sandbox-ish, but it should also be plausible.

Concentrate development