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Ziggyrunner08

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To be honest, I like the Blitzkrieg doctrine, but Firepower Focus/Grand Battle Plan would probably the most appropriate, considering the close ties the Confederacy has to the Brits.

However... "Building all those tanks is also a little tough on the CSA's industrial base." That's true, but then again in this mod the CSA has only one hostile border, so it can afford to build less units that are stronger; that is, it doesnt really need a huge army, so building a small and powerful mobile army is definitely an option for them.

So bascially, I'm torn.
 

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T-hiddemen said:
Missed the load screen. . . where is it?

If you have Version 2.5 of the mod downloaded, installed, and activated with the enclosed JSGME utility, you should see a vintage 1861 map from Harper's Weekly when you start up DD.

If not, you're playing an older version of the mod. The current v2.5 is available at the link in my sig.
 

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Thanks for the feedback everbody! My mind is still open, but I had some notions pop in my mind and thought I'd add them to the debate.

I considered why the Real Life countries in DD have the tech trees they do, and came up with:

1) USSR=Movement Focus/Human Wave, because it has huge amounts of manpower.

2) USA=Firepower Focus/Superior Firepower, because it has huge amounts of industry.

3) Germany=Movement Focus/Spearhead, because it lost WWI and had to come up with something better than "run at the entrenched machine guns" the second time around.

4) UK, France, & Italy=Firepower Focus/Grand Battle Plan because they won WWI and got complacent. They were also traumatized by their losses in the Great War, and got cautious the second time around.

Looking at the CSA in SRTDD's alt-history, #1 and #2 are right out, because it has an abundance of neither MP or IC. It is assumed that Dixie got into WWI fairly early (if not right at the start) because of its close ties to the UK and France, and went through the Somme (or its own national equivalent).

Considering that, it seems a little odd the CSA would be the one country on the winning side who lost a ton of men and then decided to be bold and innovative in its war plans. Seems like the alt-history points the way to FF/GBP.

I was also looking at the CSA's land doctrine tech teams. Three out of four have the Individual Courage specialty--something not a single tech in MF/SH tree ever calls for. So the Southern military academies and training centers are getting its soldiers ready for battle with skills they'll never actually use.:)

From a game-y perspective, it's also fairly easy to change from FF/GBP to MF/SH. If you want to simulate, say, George Patton pulling his ivory-handled pistols on the Confederate General Staff and demanding a switch, it's very easy to Abandon Doctrine on FF/GBP in 1936 and quickly catch up on the MF/SH tree.

(Quantico matches all 5 components on the basic MF starting tech, and the next tech on the tree has a historical date of 1937. So you have a whole year to catch up with history.)

All that said, again, my mind is still open. Let's face it: it's really freakin' cool to play with the German land doctrines, and it does seem plausible the South would try to rely on Movement over Firepower given its cavalier history.

Still, it's worth pointing out that while Nathan Bedford Forrest is solidly in the MF/SH camp, Lee and Jackson seem to be from the FF/GBP school; the Infiltration (Japanese) branch in particular. Their masterpiece at Chancellorsville was made possible by the type of bold nocturnal moves that branch specializes in. Lest we forget, Lee tried to win the war at Gettysburg with an artillery barrage (Firepower Focus) and a charge at the enemy's center (Grand Battle Plan).

Forrest and Jackson/Lee were all authentic military geniuses, but who would have more cred in a South which won the war at Sharpsburg? Lee and Jackson would be national heroes, and Forrest's best moments would never occur.

OK, seriously, my mind really is still open, so please continue the discussion. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong! :)
 

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The_Kipper said:
BTW you are talking 2.6 and I am still finishing and I'm still enjoying 2.4. ETA for 2.6 might be needed so I don't start 2.5. I'm like in 1942 CSA with 2.4 and refuse to stop, got a good game going on.

With JSGME, you can install new versions of SRTDD and continue to play the old saved games just as they were. None of the changes will appear in the old saved games (unless they're graphics, like the new load screen).

At any rate, 2.6 is a ways off. In it, the CSA loses a hospital tech, Hughes Aircraft gets pushed back to 1940, and *maybe* the starting land doctrines change. I want to do a CSA AI file before I release it, and that'll take some time.

At that point, I can honestly say I'll be out of new ideas for SRTDD, so I'll probably leave it be for a while and go work on a Victoria: Revolutions version of this mod.

(That said, if you good people have any ideas for stuff you'd like to see in SRTDD, please let me know. As I always say, I steal my best notions from you guys.:))
 

unmerged(2897)

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You are not wrong. Firepower Focus/Grand Battle Plan should be the CSA Way. Also I can see Patton pulling the pistols if need be.

Downloaded new version and it works fine. I really like the new screen load. You might catch some posts that Missouri is in the CSA though. I know that has been a subject before. But don't change the graphic because of that. Of course you can cave in to the vocal Missouri players too. :) I'm from farther South so it doesn't make a difference to me.

I was in Missouri last week and Springfield, Mt. Vernon and Baxter Springs all had battlefield sites and their main drags were Battlefield Ave or something like that. The museums and parks definately didn't have a Union soldier monument either. You might want to check into placing MO into the CSA. Just a thought. (Edit: I'm speaking of Springfield and Cape Girardeau though not KC and SL. Plus your premise of river boundries would work there as well.)

Good luck with the Vicky mod, I will surely try it out. It's success will all be about the converter though. Because Vicky on it's own really doesn't play as well as HOI.

You have my vote on new land doctrine #2 and Hughes Aircraft should be a higher skill in my opinion. Let Howard come up with something nuts like IRL.
 
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CSABadass said:
Thanks for the feedback everbody! My mind is still open, but I had some notions pop in my mind and thought I'd add them to the debate.

I considered why the Real Life countries in DD have the tech trees they do, and came up with:

All that said, again, my mind is still open. Let's face it: it's really freakin' cool to play with the German land doctrines, and it does seem plausible the South would try to rely on Movement over Firepower given its cavalier history.

Still, it's worth pointing out that while Nathan Bedford Forrest is solidly in the MF/SH camp, Lee and Jackson seem to be from the FF/GBP school; the Infiltration (Japanese) branch in particular. Their masterpiece at Chancellorsville was made possible by the type of bold nocturnal moves that branch specializes in. Lest we forget, Lee tried to win the war at Gettysburg with an artillery barrage (Firepower Focus) and a charge at the enemy's center (Grand Battle Plan).

Forrest and Jackson/Lee were all authentic military geniuses, but who would have more cred in a South which won the war at Sharpsburg? Lee and Jackson would be national heroes, and Forrest's best moments would never occur.

OK, seriously, my mind really is still open, so please continue the discussion. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong! :)


Good points all. Lets not forget a couple of other things. Where did many of Germany's operational conceptions come from? Guderian's studies of Liddell-Hart's theories. Would the CSA's leaders be keeping up with events? What about Longstreet's theories of defensive warfare? On the what if strain, if the south had won at Sharpsburg, what would have happened? Lee rides north, hooks east and cuts off Washington? Sounds like a pre-cursor of the Schlieffen Plan or the 1940 Sichellschnitt Plan . . . mobility, deep penetration, etc . . .

Just some thoughts to throw out. Very interesting debate and ideas from all sides
 

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T-hiddemen said:
Good points all. Lets not forget a couple of other things. Where did many of Germany's operational conceptions come from? Guderian's studies of Liddell-Hart's theories. Would the CSA's leaders be keeping up with events? What about Longstreet's theories of defensive warfare? On the what if strain, if the south had won at Sharpsburg, what would have happened? Lee rides north, hooks east and cuts off Washington? Sounds like a pre-cursor of the Schlieffen Plan or the 1940 Sichellschnitt Plan . . . mobility, deep penetration, etc . . .

Just some thoughts to throw out. Very interesting debate and ideas from all sides


I agree with what you're saying, but it sounds more Turtledove alternate history. I think Richmond would be keeping up with current theories and you are absolutely correct about Longstreet and Basil Lidell-Hart. But the British didn't listen to Liddell-Hart for the reason of geography, manpower and resources. Geography being the important factor. I think that is where CSABadass is going with his idea of a change.

Mexico is the only possible close enemy unlike Germany's need for a quick end around of France and the Eastern Front. Tanks and blitzkrieg cost too much IC and MP and the CSA is like a more powerful Canada, how I play them now. (After considerable coaching and explaining by the Mod Man.)

BTW I'm no expert on Liddell-Hart since I just recently got notified of his existence. Plus I like Blitzkrieg too, just curious how a CSA Grand Battle Plan might look. I'll be happy either way.
 
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The_Kipper said:
But the British didn't listen to Liddell-Hart for the reason of geography, manpower and resources. Geography being the important factor. I think that is where CSABadass is going with his idea of a change.

Hmmm....Im not so sure on that regard. The Brits did form a Royal Mechanized corps (or something like that) and were impressed with what they saw...

However Id ascribe the lack of British Armour theory to things-

1. Definately a predisposition to allocate resources to other services, navy and air-power, although as you say, resources were a problem as defence spending took a dive in the post WW1 years IIRC.

2. Complacency after WW1 (their way of warfare won after all) and dependence on the Leauge of Nations.

3. The government's desire to avoid the use of theories by men who were close/involved with fascist organisations.

Thats my take on it anyway, Im sure someone else will be better informed than me. :)
 

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HMS Enterprize said:
Hmmm....Im not so sure on that regard. The Brits did form a Royal Mechanized corps (or something like that) and were impressed with what they saw...

However Id ascribe the lack of British Armour theory to things-

1. Definately a predisposition to allocate resources to other services, navy and air-power, although as you say, resources were a problem as defence spending took a dive in the post WW1 years IIRC.

2. Complacency after WW1 (their way of warfare won after all) and dependence on the Leauge of Nations.

3. The government's desire to avoid the use of theories by men who were close/involved with fascist organisations.

Thats my take on it anyway, Im sure someone else will be better informed than me. :)


See, it was you that got me started researching him. I pulled up a study that mentioned resources of course and the simple fact they were thinking a bit more defensive and a blitzkrieg doctrine didn't seem important in the British Empire. I didn't read about the disdain for fascist theories idea but I bet you are right.

Thanks for introducing me to Basil, it's been fun reading.
 

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The_Kipper said:
See, it was you that got me started researching him. I pulled up a study that mentioned resources of course and the simple fact they were thinking a bit more defensive and a blitzkrieg doctrine didn't seem important in the British Empire. I didn't read about the disdain for fascist theories idea but I bet you are right.

Thanks for introducing me to Basil, it's been fun reading.

Well, Im sure there are a multitude of works out there that cover all our points and more. :)

Hart's military contemporary J.F.C Fuller (another interesting guy!) was an active member of both the military and the BUF in the war era, which probably did not help the development of blitzkrieg warfare in the UK, probably to just a great extent.

Im actually a (mature) student at the university where the Liddell Hart Centre for military archives is kept. Perhaps one day I'll have the opportunity to be able to consult some of Harts original papers. :D
 

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T-hiddemen said:
Very very cool!! What school??

Kings College, London. War Studies Dept. :)

And it is a very cool course, had loads of excellent guest speakers.

(apologies for highjacking your thread badass!)
 

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HMS Enterprize said:
Kings College, London. War Studies Dept. :)

And it is a very cool course, had loads of excellent guest speakers.

(apologies for highjacking your thread badass!)

No problem at all--I was getting ready to ask myself!
 

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The_Kipper said:
I'm definately keeping my mouth shut about Basil Liddell-Hart from now on. HMS is sitting on top of the archives. Now I'm going to check this Fuller fella out.

No need to do that on my account mate. If Ive learnt one thing its that there is always some other bit of info out there somewhere...for example, I recently told a 4th year Doctorate student about the WW2 plan to build giant aircraft carriers out of super-hard ice, he (a naval historian) had never even heard of it...which surprised me to say the least.
 

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HMS Enterprize said:
No need to do that on my account mate. If Ive learnt one thing its that there is always some other bit of info out there somewhere...for example, I recently told a 4th year Doctorate student about the WW2 plan to build giant aircraft carriers out of super-hard ice, he (a naval historian) had never even heard of it...which surprised me to say the least.


Hey, I H ave a history degree, and the first time I heard about that I thought it was some made up internet crap :rofl:

There's always more to learn!

Back to the thread topic, though, CSA, what about an event to choose the branch of tech tree.

Armoured Theorists gain favour and take control of War College Curricula . . . .

Armoured Theorists ideas rejected by General Staff, War College continues to teach Grand Battle . . .
 

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watch the history channel more, there was a bomb so big it was called the Earthquake Bomb, too bad it came so late, the A-Bomb was created soon after.

it was all in one show

and the japs had german nukes and were a day away from San Francisco when the cease fire was signed..continues blabbering on

sorry for the spam but just had to inform people

and more hijaking /cry
 

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anti-commi said:
and the japs had german nukes and were a day away from San Francisco when the cease fire was signed..continues blabbering on

Really? Never heard even a wiff of that before!