I don't know much about these Slavic peoples who lived along the Elbe, does anybody know have any good sites/info/books about them? Sorry it's kinda vague, but then again, my knowledge of them is pretty vague!
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- immigrated in the 5th to 7th centuries following the departure of most Germanic populations
- first mentioning in Latin chronicles at the time of Charlemagne, there was a "Limes Sorbicus" under the command of various small counts, with a number of market villages where trade and diplomacy were conducted
- Retained tribal organization throughout most of their existence
- Had small populations, centered on villages in defendable locations - not necessarily in the most fertile locations. This allowed the Slavs and the Germanic settlers of the 11th and later centuries to coexist for a while.
- the Wendes along the upper Elbe took part in the wars between Charlemagne and the Saxons (late 8th century)
- were bullied and pushed around by the German emperors and for a while by the Polish kings, the first round of struggle ended with the German kings supreme. Between 930 and 960, they installed a number of margravates (6) to rule over the Slavic border regions.
- successfully threw off German domination in a great uprising in 983 and maintained it for a while (due to the kings being busy in Italy)
- maintained several temples of supra-regional importance f.ex. at Arkona on the island of Rügen
- in the 10th century, the Bishoprics of Oldenburg (in Holstein), Havelberg and Brandenburg were established to serve as centers for mission activity and military bases for the March of the Billungers, the Nordmark and the March Lausitz, respectively. All three were destroyed in the great uprising of 983. The bishoprics of Meißen, Merseburg and Zeitz, centers of margravates as well, survived, since the uprising was not as successful in the southern regions.
- Emperor Heinrich II fought several unsuccessful wars with Polish king Boleslav Chrobry in ca. 1000-1020, leaving Boleslav with (nominal) control over Lausitz for a while. Poland imploded shortly afterwards, though, and Polish suzerainty over land west of the Oder was lost
- The still independent Slavic tribes in Mecklenburg and western Pomerania were victimized by Danish, German and Bohemian crusaders due to their pagan faith in the 12th and 13th century, leading to their subjugation and/or extinction
- first mentioning in Latin chronicles at the time of Charlemagne, there was a "Limes Sorbicus" under the command of various small counts, with a number of market villages where trade and diplomacy were conducted
- Retained tribal organization throughout most of their existence
- Had small populations, centered on villages in defendable locations - not necessarily in the most fertile locations. This allowed the Slavs and the Germanic settlers of the 11th and later centuries to coexist for a while.
- the Wendes along the upper Elbe took part in the wars between Charlemagne and the Saxons (late 8th century)
- were bullied and pushed around by the German emperors and for a while by the Polish kings, the first round of struggle ended with the German kings supreme. Between 930 and 960, they installed a number of margravates (6) to rule over the Slavic border regions.
- successfully threw off German domination in a great uprising in 983 and maintained it for a while (due to the kings being busy in Italy)
- maintained several temples of supra-regional importance f.ex. at Arkona on the island of Rügen
- in the 10th century, the Bishoprics of Oldenburg (in Holstein), Havelberg and Brandenburg were established to serve as centers for mission activity and military bases for the March of the Billungers, the Nordmark and the March Lausitz, respectively. All three were destroyed in the great uprising of 983. The bishoprics of Meißen, Merseburg and Zeitz, centers of margravates as well, survived, since the uprising was not as successful in the southern regions.
- Emperor Heinrich II fought several unsuccessful wars with Polish king Boleslav Chrobry in ca. 1000-1020, leaving Boleslav with (nominal) control over Lausitz for a while. Poland imploded shortly afterwards, though, and Polish suzerainty over land west of the Oder was lost
- The still independent Slavic tribes in Mecklenburg and western Pomerania were victimized by Danish, German and Bohemian crusaders due to their pagan faith in the 12th and 13th century, leading to their subjugation and/or extinction
From wikipedia
The Obotrites (sometimes Abodrites, Obodrites) were a group of Slavic peoples who had in the 6th century settled in the regions later known as Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein in what is now north-eastern Germany. Because of their links to other neighbouring Slavic ethnic groups they are regarded as a sub-group of Polabian Slavs.
They alternately fought with and served as tributaries to the Frankish kings and their successors in the East, acknowledging finally the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire in 1170, after which the region underwent rapid Germanisation. However, through the late 15th century, most villagers were still speaking Slavic dialects (Polabian language).
In common with other Slavic groups, they were often described by Frankish sources as Wends.
Polabian Slavs is a collective term applied to a number of Slavic tribes living along the Labe River, between the Baltic Sea to the north, Solau to the west and Sudetes to the south. The tribes settled the area in late 1st millenium.
The Polabian Slavs were grouped in three basic tribal groups:
* Lusatian Sorbs (Sorbians, Głomacze, Milczans and Lusatians)
* Wieletes (Redars and Czrezpienians)
* Obodrites (Obodrites and Wagrs)
Two latter groups were in 7th century subjugated by Franks and their lands were soon afterwards conquered by German bishops and nobles. They liberated themselves in the effect of a pagan uprising in 983, but were again subdued by the Germans in mid-12th century. Despite the forcible christianisation, the Slavic language was spoken by the descendants of Drewlians in the area of lower Labe until early 18th century.
In turn, the Lusatian Sorbs remained independent to a large extent. They were temporarily subdued by Carolus Magnus, but upon his death the links with the Francs were broken. In a series of bloody wars between 929 and 963 their lands were conquered by Henry the Fowler and his son Otto the Great and were incorporated into German domain. By 14th century the majority of Slavs living there were germanised. However, the lands of Milczans and Lusatians remained in the sphere of influence of Poland and Bohemia and the Slavic presence there prevailed into 21st century.
Currently Polabian proper is extinct. However, both Lusatian languages are spoken by approximately 100,000 inhabitants of the region and the languages are regarded by the government of Germany as official languages of the region.
The Obotrites (sometimes Abodrites, Obodrites) were a group of Slavic peoples who had in the 6th century settled in the regions later known as Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein in what is now north-eastern Germany. Because of their links to other neighbouring Slavic ethnic groups they are regarded as a sub-group of Polabian Slavs.
They alternately fought with and served as tributaries to the Frankish kings and their successors in the East, acknowledging finally the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire in 1170, after which the region underwent rapid Germanisation. However, through the late 15th century, most villagers were still speaking Slavic dialects (Polabian language).
In common with other Slavic groups, they were often described by Frankish sources as Wends.
Polabian Slavs is a collective term applied to a number of Slavic tribes living along the Labe River, between the Baltic Sea to the north, Solau to the west and Sudetes to the south. The tribes settled the area in late 1st millenium.
The Polabian Slavs were grouped in three basic tribal groups:
* Lusatian Sorbs (Sorbians, Głomacze, Milczans and Lusatians)
* Wieletes (Redars and Czrezpienians)
* Obodrites (Obodrites and Wagrs)
Two latter groups were in 7th century subjugated by Franks and their lands were soon afterwards conquered by German bishops and nobles. They liberated themselves in the effect of a pagan uprising in 983, but were again subdued by the Germans in mid-12th century. Despite the forcible christianisation, the Slavic language was spoken by the descendants of Drewlians in the area of lower Labe until early 18th century.
In turn, the Lusatian Sorbs remained independent to a large extent. They were temporarily subdued by Carolus Magnus, but upon his death the links with the Francs were broken. In a series of bloody wars between 929 and 963 their lands were conquered by Henry the Fowler and his son Otto the Great and were incorporated into German domain. By 14th century the majority of Slavs living there were germanised. However, the lands of Milczans and Lusatians remained in the sphere of influence of Poland and Bohemia and the Slavic presence there prevailed into 21st century.
Currently Polabian proper is extinct. However, both Lusatian languages are spoken by approximately 100,000 inhabitants of the region and the languages are regarded by the government of Germany as official languages of the region.
The first place I check for anything is Wikipeida! 
I already know all that, but I'm looking for more in-depth info
I already know all that, but I'm looking for more in-depth info
Karl Martell said:
Too bad I can't speak German
Interesting stain glass windows on the first site though
Eric Christiansen's The Northern Crusades has some detailed information on the lifestyles and military activity of the Wends. It's a solid book.
well, what kind of information are you looking for then? Cause I'm affraid that for really specific stuff you will have to learn either German or a slavic language as most standard books on that topic are written in these
Dunno if you seen these maps already, I think I got them through the Polish wikipedia or something else...
west-slavic tribes 800-950, grouped linguistically (colours)
locations of Polabian tribes (small letters). In big letters the names of 'greater tribes' (translation from Polish shouldn't be a problem for these I think). It doesn't mention all the tribes unfortuantely - the Wagrians in eastern Holstein were left out for some reason and Drewians are not showed on that map either.
If you'd like to dive into original sources on slavs I could recommend the 'Great Slavic chronicle' of Helmond (a medieval German writer) who wrote specifically about Obodrites (I bet there are English translations of that to be found somewhere...)
In general Obodrites are the best documented of the 3 'Greater tribes'. They were expansive, retained a system of rulers (elected or dynastical, documented since late 8th cent) for their great-tribal confederacy, had even some christian rulers underway (christianization progressed here fastest, although so did the pagan reaction of 1066). The Obodrite dynasty Germanized eventually and ruled Mecklemburg till 1918. The common Obodrites themselves were Germanized quick enough already - by the end of the 18th century had these languages disappeared.
Weletians/Weleti remained pagan much longer, mostly as in their lands was the legendary Radogost - most important religious centre in these parts of slavic Europe. Weleti formed also a confederacy, but they lost (abolished?) quite quickly the principal rule (for the confederacy at least) and were since middle 9th century ruled by 'wiec' (popular council). The confederacy fell apart in the late 11th century iirc when the separate tribes started fighting eachother, opening the way for German expansion here.
Sorbs were less well organized, and they probably didn't have a proper confederacy since early 9th century. Western Sorbs were also earlier Germanized. The most important tribes as Glomachi and Milchans didn't really develop much of a statehood, even not the limited level of the northern tribes. Glomachi were ruled by princes, for Milchans and other tribes the political situation is generally unknown. Ironically only Sorbic groups survived till today.
Besides these 3 'confederacies' there were other loose tribes here, best known being Stodorans (or Hobolans; probably from Weletian stock but operating loose of the confederacy) around Brandenburg (Brenna) and Hawelburg (Hobolin) and Drewians (the only considerable tribe located west of the Elbe-Saale line, located NE of Hannover, of uncertain stock - Obodrite or Weletian). Stodorans had princes till the end of the 10th century, then apparently some German knight managed to make himself 'prince of Stodorans' if we may believe the medieval chronichers. Such rulers (slavic or not) retained their small principalities here till Albrecht the Bear would take over Brandenburg after 1153.
Drewians had no political system developed as they submitted themselves to Germany early on, which ensured their 'autonomy' in the region otoh (they were used to defend the German borders from especially Obodrites). Drewians retained their identity and language until the 19th century.
Dunno if you seen these maps already, I think I got them through the Polish wikipedia or something else...
west-slavic tribes 800-950, grouped linguistically (colours)
locations of Polabian tribes (small letters). In big letters the names of 'greater tribes' (translation from Polish shouldn't be a problem for these I think
). It doesn't mention all the tribes unfortuantely - the Wagrians in eastern Holstein were left out for some reason and Drewians are not showed on that map either.
If you'd like to dive into original sources on slavs I could recommend the 'Great Slavic chronicle' of Helmond (a medieval German writer) who wrote specifically about Obodrites (I bet there are English translations of that to be found somewhere...)
In general Obodrites are the best documented of the 3 'Greater tribes'. They were expansive, retained a system of rulers (elected or dynastical, documented since late 8th cent) for their great-tribal confederacy, had even some christian rulers underway (christianization progressed here fastest, although so did the pagan reaction of 1066
). The Obodrite dynasty Germanized eventually and ruled Mecklemburg till 1918. The common Obodrites themselves were Germanized quick enough already - by the end of the 18th century had these languages disappeared. Weletians/Weleti remained pagan much longer, mostly as in their lands was the legendary Radogost - most important religious centre in these parts of slavic Europe. Weleti formed also a confederacy, but they lost (abolished?) quite quickly the principal rule (for the confederacy at least) and were since middle 9th century ruled by 'wiec' (popular council). The confederacy fell apart in the late 11th century iirc when the separate tribes started fighting eachother, opening the way for German expansion here.
Sorbs were less well organized, and they probably didn't have a proper confederacy since early 9th century. Western Sorbs were also earlier Germanized. The most important tribes as Glomachi and Milchans didn't really develop much of a statehood, even not the limited level of the northern tribes. Glomachi were ruled by princes, for Milchans and other tribes the political situation is generally unknown. Ironically only Sorbic groups survived till today.
Besides these 3 'confederacies' there were other loose tribes here, best known being Stodorans (or Hobolans; probably from Weletian stock but operating loose of the confederacy) around Brandenburg (Brenna) and Hawelburg (Hobolin) and Drewians (the only considerable tribe located west of the Elbe-Saale line, located NE of Hannover, of uncertain stock - Obodrite or Weletian). Stodorans had princes till the end of the 10th century, then apparently some German knight managed to make himself 'prince of Stodorans' if we may believe the medieval chronichers. Such rulers (slavic or not) retained their small principalities here till Albrecht the Bear would take over Brandenburg after 1153.
Drewians had no political system developed as they submitted themselves to Germany early on, which ensured their 'autonomy' in the region otoh (they were used to defend the German borders from especially Obodrites). Drewians retained their identity and language until the 19th century.
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How closely related are Sorbic and today's West Slavic languages? To my amateurish eye, Sorbic looks quite similar to Polish or Czech... lots of consonants and impossible pronounciation. Could a Polish or Czech speaker figure out what it means without in-depth knowledge of Sorbic grammar and vocabulary?
(The two sites I linked to have a Sorbic button that looks like an top-down Russian flag)
Could a Polish or Czech speaker figure out what it means without in-depth knowledge of Sorbic grammar and vocabulary?(The two sites I linked to have a Sorbic button that looks like an top-down Russian flag)
dunno where you're looking for it but I can see the Wagrian tribe name (Wagrowie) in Holstein just nicely. And there's a "Dzewinie" or something like that in Wendland, west of the Elbe.Kasperus said:
Karl Martell said:How closely related are Sorbic and today's West Slavic languages? To my amateurish eye, Sorbic looks quite similar to Polish or Czech... lots of consonants and impossible pronounciation.
(The two sites I linked to have a Sorbic button that looks like an top-down Russian flag)
Well, I am Czech native speaker... I do not know a word in Sorbic, but I can understand the written words on that site (I never heard spoken Sorbic) well enough to know what they want to say.
It looks to me that the relation between Sorbic and Czech language is similar to Polish-Czech relation.
Karl Martell said:How closely related are Sorbic and today's West Slavic languages? To my amateurish eye, Sorbic looks quite similar to Polish or Czech... lots of consonants and impossible pronounciation.
(The two sites I linked to have a Sorbic button that looks like an top-down Russian flag)
Cool, I can understand it... well, most of it
.But it sound definately more Czech like than Polish. But on the other hand few centuries ago there was almost no difference between Czech and Polish language.
On the first map yes, that comment was for the 2nd map. I 'fixed' my previous post to avoid further confusionKarl Martell said:dunno where you're looking for it but I can see the Wagrian tribe name (Wagrowie) in Holstein just nicely. And there's a "Dzewinie" or something like that in Wendland, west of the Elbe.
They are closely related. The northern dialect is closer to Polish (esp. on pronounciation and sound) while the southern dialect is closer to Czech. In writing they are both closer to Czech (no double-consonants). To my eye (an d ear) the northern dialect is certainly closer to Polish than any other slavic language (even Kashubian).
I do wonder, though, what the hatched area in Thuringia stands for. AFAIK the Germanic tribes never left the area, and maintained a sort of strong duchy there until the Franks conquered the region. I've never heard of Slavic settlement in Thurngia. The partially Slavic settled region along the upper Main and in (modern-day) Franken also seems a tad large.
But apart from that, it's a wonderful map. What do the dark grey dotted lines stand for? I gather that the blue line stands for the border of the German Kingdom (Kralestwa Niemickiego?) and the yellow ones for the Realm of Swatopluk...?
And do you have a larger version of the map? The writing is really hard to read for my eyes, not just because of all the consonants.
But apart from that, it's a wonderful map. What do the dark grey dotted lines stand for? I gather that the blue line stands for the border of the German Kingdom (Kralestwa Niemickiego?) and the yellow ones for the Realm of Swatopluk...?
And do you have a larger version of the map? The writing is really hard to read for my eyes, not just because of all the consonants.
It shows the farmost extent of any slavic settlements in these area's I presume. 'Peaceful' slavic groups were allowed to settle on German territories, often only to become serfs in some way. I did heard of 'colonisation' far into Bavaria, and even into Frisia. These groups did usually not form any more developed tribal organisations and were quickly Germanized.Karl Martell said:
Grey dotted lines are the approximate borders of the more organized statehood-cores. 'Zwiazek Obodrzycki' = Obodrite Confederation, 'Zwiazek Wielecki' = Weletian Confederation. The other represent Polans and Wislans in Poland who were the most developed groups in that region. In Czech lands these are the core-lands of 'proper' Czechs and Moravians.
Yellow line represents the approximate extent of Moravian state under Swatopluk.
Blue line is indeed the border of German kingdom.
Unfortunately no - as said I just got that scan from the net somewhere. I did use to have the original atlas with that map though, but I lost it somewhere long ago...And do you have a larger version of the map? The writing is really hard to read for my eyes, not just because of all the consonants.
After re-erading this I realise I didn't ask my real (and Crusader Kings based) question. In 1066 who outnumbered who in Saxony and Brandenburg, the Sorbs/Lusatians or the Germans?
Visuz said:Cool, I can understand it... well, most of it
But it sound definately more Czech like than Polish. But on the other hand few centuries ago there was almost no difference between Czech and Polish language.
Indeed - this way this Sorbian looks like kind of "ancient Polish" over there...
In written form of course, I must say, I've never heard any word in this language...
Here is an interesting page that proposes an independent Lusatia:
http://www.geocities.com/free_lusatia/Lusatian_State
A map of an independent Lusatia:
http://www.geocities.com/free_lusatia/Republic_of_Lusatia.JPG
Bautzen:
http://www.bautzen.de/
http://www.geocities.com/free_lusatia/Lusatian_State
A map of an independent Lusatia:
http://www.geocities.com/free_lusatia/Republic_of_Lusatia.JPG
Bautzen:
http://www.bautzen.de/
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Very interesting links, I'm surprised Pithorr has never heard of Sorbs is surprising, what with Poland and the Sorbs being so near each other. Whatever happened to pan-slavism?