So, after my initial disappointment with yesterday's livestream, I decided to stop complaining and actually try to help the devs in what I would see as improving the game. To call the child by it's name, my "problem" is that the Saxons will be represented as "Norse" religion in game, which I personally find to be an oversimplification. HOWEVER, I don't want this thread to degenerate into another "Fanboys vs Haters" flamewars, as we already have enough of them already (sadly). Instead, this thread should be a collection of ideas and opinions on how one could better the representation of the Saxons in the upcoming DLC. Should the devs decide to still go with "Norse" it's their decision and this thread could then act as a source of ideas for modders.
Again, I don't want to discuss the question if Saxon paganism should be in, but rather HOW it should be modelled IF it would be in. Therefore, let me adress some common concers people seem to have:
- Other pagans (mostly Slavs) also deserve a better representation!
This is fully true. Besides the Norse and maybe the Tengri, pagans are rather flavourless. This is especially true for the South Slavs, who are represented as Christians. But just because the other religions are not fleshed out properly, a potential new form of paganism has to suffer the same faith. I encourage everyone who has some knowledge on these faiths (as I personally don't) to start another thread and fill them with ideas, the same way I try to do here.
- This is not the focus of the DLC!
Again, this is true. But neither are tribal holdings, chronicles and Zunbils, and they will still be included in the DLC/patch. And one could actually argue that Saxon pagans were historically relevant for the life of Karl the Great, as it was he who conquered and converted them.
- This would take away valuable dev time!
As we know, only four people with limited resources work on the DLC and there are certainly more important matters than Saxon paganism. This is exactly the reason why I started this thread: to help the devs by giving them ideas, sharing opinions and maybe even provided a script or two. MAYBE this will lower the amount of dev work/time needed and can therefore be implemented without spending to much valuable time on this admittedly minor thing.
- Saxons were close enough to Norse to be represented as such!
This is wrong and one of the goals of this thread should be to make clear how and in which way the Saxons were different from the Norse Vikings. HOWEVER, and this is important: This is not a debatte about the religious views of the Norse/Saxons! I'm sure a certain user will post in this thread how all Germanic peoples worshipped the same gods and how they are all descdend from Scandinavia (as he likes to repeat). You may think about this user whatever you want, but in this case he is right: Germanic peoples shared a common pantheon. Sure, there were differences in the name and relevance of certain gods and religious practises, but in essence these gods were identical. As stated above however, this is not a discussion about the religion(s) itself, but rather their implementation and effects in the game.
I hope this preamble will set the boundaries for a civil and fruitful discussion. No, let's go on to the core of this post:
Why and how Saxons are different from Vikings
Let me begin with with stating the similarities between these two faiths. Firtsly, both Norse and Saxons were famous for being pirates and sea-raiders. Secondly, they worshiped the same gods, albeit under different names.
The first argument can be dismissed by the different scale of sea-raids conducted by these two people. While the Saxons were famous sea-raiders, so where Slavs, Baltics, Estonians, Saracens and basically every other people who lived on the seashores. However, only the Norse vikings were really able to conduct such raids on a scale never seen before. Not only did they sail as far as Bagdad, raided the Mediterrean started a large scale invasion of Britain, they also managed to colonise Greenland and even set foot to the American continent. This, combined with the ruthless efficieny of their raids, distinguished them from mere raiders. I personally fail to see how the Saxons, as famous as raiders as they were, could be justified to be able to do the same.
The second argument, as I stated above, is not the focus of this thread. Let me repeat it, just so everyone reads it: This is not a debatte about the religious views of the Norse/Saxons! Everyone knows the worshiped the same gods, and nobody is going to say otherwise (hopefully). So I ask you to please let this argument rest for a while. Were not here to talk about thelogical differences of Germanic faiths, but about their implementation and effects in the game.
After having stated the (few, but admittedly big) similarities, let me state the more numerous differences, namly (but not limited to) runestones, holy sites and holy orders. The runestones may be one of the most remarkable mistake that would be made if Saxons were to be represented as Norse. Runestones were a exclusivly Norse/Scandinavian things. Anyone who is interested in this artifacts will tell you that the only runestones found in the boundaries of modern-day Germany were found in Haithabu/Hedeby, which was an important trading hub founded and settled by Danish vikings (and which today lies VERY close to the Danish border, in the furthes reaches of Schleswig-Holstein). No other Germanic people raised the some monuments as the vikings did. Enabling the Saxons to do so would not only be ahistorical, but it would also take away flavour from playing Saxons, as they would just be a copy-paste of the Vikings.
The holy sites of a (potential) Saxon paganism is another thing of note. As we all know, "holy sites" doesn't necessarly mean "holy place of worship". Infact, many of the holy sites represent places of potential conquest or "trophy conquests". The holy places for the Norse religion only make sense in one single holding, Braunschweig. This was the supposed place of the Saxon Irminsul. Uppsala, Trondheim and Sjaeland didn't have any religious significance for the Saxons, and they neither would they have been an attractive route of expansion.
The last of the big differences between Saxons and Norse is the holy order of the latter. The Jomsvikings were a half-mythical group of Vikings, founded long after the conversion of the Saxons to christianity and (probably) based on the shores of the Baltic sea. I fail to see any reason why they should be connected to the Saxons. Sure, the "historical" Jomsvikings also fought for christians, but in reality, the Jomsvikings where probably mercenaries who fought for, suprisingly, gold. The religion of their employer was only a trivial matter, if it even mattered.
Besides the differences between Norse and Saxons, we also have some things that the Saxons have and the Norse don't. To name a few: religious significance of horses, their orientation towards the south, their holy trees (like the aforementioned Irminsul or the Thuringian "Donareiche") and their "national god" Saxnot. The significances of horses is visible both in pagan Saxons graves, in which the remains of horses were found, and in the Coat of Arms of modern day Lower Saxony (the same CoA as the in-game duchy of Braunschweig), which features a white horse on red ground.
The second point, their orientation towards the south, probably needs some more explanation. Historically, the Saxons had rather close ties to the other continental Germanic tribes, accompanying them on their invasions of Gaul, Italy and Iberia (in addition to launching their own invasion of Britain). With their northern neighbours, the North Germanic vikings, they simply didn't share such a close connection.
Admittedly, the sacred trees were not necessarly Saxon only (as there was also a holy tree at Uppsala), although out of any Germanic tribe they probably put the most emphasys on them. P'dox even acknowledged this fact by placing one the Norse holy sites in Braunschweig, the supposed location of the Saxon Irminsul.
I hope this few points helped people to recognize the differences between Saxons and Norse. Should there be any more, or more important ones, I'd be happy if someone could share them with us (as I'm not the ultimate authority on the subject, that much I must admit). Now let's go on on how these differences could be implemented in the game.
Suggestion on how to create a better experience for pagan Saxons
Lastly, I would like to suggest a few possible ways to implement a possible Saxon/Germanic faith in the game:
Events:
- Weregild!
Trigger:
This event could have a chance to trigger whenever you kill a fellow co-religionist, be it in war, through a plot (in which you are uncovered) or during certain events.
Event text:
Today, one of our vassals came to your court and accused you of killing one of his close kin. As is our ancient custom, he now demands you to pay the weregild for his dead relative.
Option A: I will pay this man for sure.
lose money depending on the rank (or prestige) of the killed victim
+ 50 prestige
+ 25 piety
Option B: I will refuse to pay him!
- 50 prestige
- 100 piety
Additional information:
Weregild was a law that demanded monetary compensation for a murder. This law can be found in almost every Germanic society, even the Norse vikings. As there is no such an event for the Norse, it would be neat to see it for a potential Saxon religion. There is also a historical precedent for it, in the form of Mul of Kent
- We brought our brothers back to the Old Gods!
Trigger:
This event would trigger whenever a province which was of some relevance to Germanic pagans (holy sites?) is conquered by a Saxon/Germanic pagan.
Event text:
Once, the Old Gods reigned supremed in the lands of [province name]. Now, with our conquest, we have restored their rightful rule!
Option A: Saxnot is surely proud of us!
+ 50 prestige
+ 50 piety
Additional information:
I understand that such an event would be rather "fantasy-ish", but I think it would give some flavour. Think of it like the Germanic pagan equivalent to the "City sacked!" events for the Mongols.
- The burning of the Holy Tree:
Trigger:
This event would fire whenever a Christian lord (or maybe any non-pagan) conquers Braunschweig and converts it to his religion.
Event text:
Today, a christian missionary came to our sacred tree and cut it down! The local populance saw this as sign of weakness of our gods and have converted to the religion of the blaspehemers.
Option A: We will show them the wrath of Woden!
- 50 prestige
15% chance of getting the trait "Zealous"
Additional information:
This would practically be the opposite of the "We brought our brothers back to the Old Golds!" event. I think a christian version of this event, where a christian ruler conquers Braunschweig and get's some piety and prestige for cutting down a heathen idol, could also be justified. Unlike the previous event, this has a historical basis, not only in Donar's Oak but also in the historical Irminsul, which was cut down on order of Charlemagne.
Decisions:
- Celebrate Halegmonath
Conditions:
- month has to be at least September
- characters is not at war or a prisoner
- character wealth of at least X
- piety of least X
Effect:
This decision would give a small character modifier along the lines of "Celebrating Halegmonath" (+0.05 prestige per month) and would start a small series of (generic) feasting events.
Additional information:
Basically, this would be the Saxon flavour of the generic feast and as such would work similar to the blot (albeit less bloody). Historically, it was a festival associated with harvest and was celebrated in September, where the Saxons would offer, amongst other things, cakes to their gods.
- Hold a thing
Conditions:
- characters is at least 16 years old
- characters is not at war or a prisoner
- character wealth of at least X
- prestige of least X
- can only be held every X years
Effects:
Like the Norse Great Blot, the Saxon thing would allow you to invivte all of your vassals which share your religion to an assembly of freemen. Like the "Great Blot" this could start some (generic) feasting events. Holding a thing should also give you some prestige.
Additional information:
Again, not something uncommon amongst other Germanic people such as the Norse, but suprisingly missing (as this was rather big part of Germanic society). One could also expand on the small events that can start during a thing to make it possible to form rivalriers or friendships.
Holy Sites:
- Braunschweig
This is already a holy site for the Norse, and the only one that really makes sense for the Saxons. As aforementioned, it is the supposed place of the Irminsul.
- Kent
Kent was supposedly founded by Horsa and Hengest, the two Saxons brother who led the Angles, Saxons and Jutes in their conquest of Britain.
- A county in Thuringia or Franconia
I would place a holy site in western Germany, a bit south of Saxony, to encourage Saxon players to retake Germany for the old gods.
- Anhalt
Roughly in this province should be the town of Merseburg, where the "Merseburg Incantations" where found.
I'm not sure about the last one of the holy sites, though. Maybe another in Britain, maybe one in Northern France.
Please note that this was just a small brainstorming and by no means should these suggestion be taken as the best or even good suggestion. Feel free to add some yourself!
Some last words and TL;DR
I hope this wall of text wasn't to hard to read and it made clear why I personally believe that a better representation of the Saxon pagans would enrich the game. I hope this post will start a fruitful, friendly and above anything else a civil discussion. This is a forum about a game which we all enjoy, and I would rather like to give the devs constructive ideads than to just bash them for not developing their game the way you want. (even if I probably did so, on occasion). If you want to rage or flame, please do so on an other thread, there are enough ongoing flamewars already.
TL;DR
Basically make the Saxons pagan their own religion, give them some unique decisions and events and place their holy sites further south. Flavour for them would improve and Norse could be used to specifically represent Scandinavian vikings.
Again, I don't want to discuss the question if Saxon paganism should be in, but rather HOW it should be modelled IF it would be in. Therefore, let me adress some common concers people seem to have:
- Other pagans (mostly Slavs) also deserve a better representation!
This is fully true. Besides the Norse and maybe the Tengri, pagans are rather flavourless. This is especially true for the South Slavs, who are represented as Christians. But just because the other religions are not fleshed out properly, a potential new form of paganism has to suffer the same faith. I encourage everyone who has some knowledge on these faiths (as I personally don't) to start another thread and fill them with ideas, the same way I try to do here.
- This is not the focus of the DLC!
Again, this is true. But neither are tribal holdings, chronicles and Zunbils, and they will still be included in the DLC/patch. And one could actually argue that Saxon pagans were historically relevant for the life of Karl the Great, as it was he who conquered and converted them.
- This would take away valuable dev time!
As we know, only four people with limited resources work on the DLC and there are certainly more important matters than Saxon paganism. This is exactly the reason why I started this thread: to help the devs by giving them ideas, sharing opinions and maybe even provided a script or two. MAYBE this will lower the amount of dev work/time needed and can therefore be implemented without spending to much valuable time on this admittedly minor thing.
- Saxons were close enough to Norse to be represented as such!
This is wrong and one of the goals of this thread should be to make clear how and in which way the Saxons were different from the Norse Vikings. HOWEVER, and this is important: This is not a debatte about the religious views of the Norse/Saxons! I'm sure a certain user will post in this thread how all Germanic peoples worshipped the same gods and how they are all descdend from Scandinavia (as he likes to repeat). You may think about this user whatever you want, but in this case he is right: Germanic peoples shared a common pantheon. Sure, there were differences in the name and relevance of certain gods and religious practises, but in essence these gods were identical. As stated above however, this is not a discussion about the religion(s) itself, but rather their implementation and effects in the game.
I hope this preamble will set the boundaries for a civil and fruitful discussion. No, let's go on to the core of this post:
Why and how Saxons are different from Vikings
Let me begin with with stating the similarities between these two faiths. Firtsly, both Norse and Saxons were famous for being pirates and sea-raiders. Secondly, they worshiped the same gods, albeit under different names.
The first argument can be dismissed by the different scale of sea-raids conducted by these two people. While the Saxons were famous sea-raiders, so where Slavs, Baltics, Estonians, Saracens and basically every other people who lived on the seashores. However, only the Norse vikings were really able to conduct such raids on a scale never seen before. Not only did they sail as far as Bagdad, raided the Mediterrean started a large scale invasion of Britain, they also managed to colonise Greenland and even set foot to the American continent. This, combined with the ruthless efficieny of their raids, distinguished them from mere raiders. I personally fail to see how the Saxons, as famous as raiders as they were, could be justified to be able to do the same.
The second argument, as I stated above, is not the focus of this thread. Let me repeat it, just so everyone reads it: This is not a debatte about the religious views of the Norse/Saxons! Everyone knows the worshiped the same gods, and nobody is going to say otherwise (hopefully). So I ask you to please let this argument rest for a while. Were not here to talk about thelogical differences of Germanic faiths, but about their implementation and effects in the game.
After having stated the (few, but admittedly big) similarities, let me state the more numerous differences, namly (but not limited to) runestones, holy sites and holy orders. The runestones may be one of the most remarkable mistake that would be made if Saxons were to be represented as Norse. Runestones were a exclusivly Norse/Scandinavian things. Anyone who is interested in this artifacts will tell you that the only runestones found in the boundaries of modern-day Germany were found in Haithabu/Hedeby, which was an important trading hub founded and settled by Danish vikings (and which today lies VERY close to the Danish border, in the furthes reaches of Schleswig-Holstein). No other Germanic people raised the some monuments as the vikings did. Enabling the Saxons to do so would not only be ahistorical, but it would also take away flavour from playing Saxons, as they would just be a copy-paste of the Vikings.
The holy sites of a (potential) Saxon paganism is another thing of note. As we all know, "holy sites" doesn't necessarly mean "holy place of worship". Infact, many of the holy sites represent places of potential conquest or "trophy conquests". The holy places for the Norse religion only make sense in one single holding, Braunschweig. This was the supposed place of the Saxon Irminsul. Uppsala, Trondheim and Sjaeland didn't have any religious significance for the Saxons, and they neither would they have been an attractive route of expansion.
The last of the big differences between Saxons and Norse is the holy order of the latter. The Jomsvikings were a half-mythical group of Vikings, founded long after the conversion of the Saxons to christianity and (probably) based on the shores of the Baltic sea. I fail to see any reason why they should be connected to the Saxons. Sure, the "historical" Jomsvikings also fought for christians, but in reality, the Jomsvikings where probably mercenaries who fought for, suprisingly, gold. The religion of their employer was only a trivial matter, if it even mattered.
Besides the differences between Norse and Saxons, we also have some things that the Saxons have and the Norse don't. To name a few: religious significance of horses, their orientation towards the south, their holy trees (like the aforementioned Irminsul or the Thuringian "Donareiche") and their "national god" Saxnot. The significances of horses is visible both in pagan Saxons graves, in which the remains of horses were found, and in the Coat of Arms of modern day Lower Saxony (the same CoA as the in-game duchy of Braunschweig), which features a white horse on red ground.
The second point, their orientation towards the south, probably needs some more explanation. Historically, the Saxons had rather close ties to the other continental Germanic tribes, accompanying them on their invasions of Gaul, Italy and Iberia (in addition to launching their own invasion of Britain). With their northern neighbours, the North Germanic vikings, they simply didn't share such a close connection.
Admittedly, the sacred trees were not necessarly Saxon only (as there was also a holy tree at Uppsala), although out of any Germanic tribe they probably put the most emphasys on them. P'dox even acknowledged this fact by placing one the Norse holy sites in Braunschweig, the supposed location of the Saxon Irminsul.
I hope this few points helped people to recognize the differences between Saxons and Norse. Should there be any more, or more important ones, I'd be happy if someone could share them with us (as I'm not the ultimate authority on the subject, that much I must admit). Now let's go on on how these differences could be implemented in the game.
Suggestion on how to create a better experience for pagan Saxons
Lastly, I would like to suggest a few possible ways to implement a possible Saxon/Germanic faith in the game:
Events:
- Weregild!
Trigger:
This event could have a chance to trigger whenever you kill a fellow co-religionist, be it in war, through a plot (in which you are uncovered) or during certain events.
Event text:
Today, one of our vassals came to your court and accused you of killing one of his close kin. As is our ancient custom, he now demands you to pay the weregild for his dead relative.
Option A: I will pay this man for sure.
lose money depending on the rank (or prestige) of the killed victim
+ 50 prestige
+ 25 piety
Option B: I will refuse to pay him!
- 50 prestige
- 100 piety
Additional information:
Weregild was a law that demanded monetary compensation for a murder. This law can be found in almost every Germanic society, even the Norse vikings. As there is no such an event for the Norse, it would be neat to see it for a potential Saxon religion. There is also a historical precedent for it, in the form of Mul of Kent
- We brought our brothers back to the Old Gods!
Trigger:
This event would trigger whenever a province which was of some relevance to Germanic pagans (holy sites?) is conquered by a Saxon/Germanic pagan.
Event text:
Once, the Old Gods reigned supremed in the lands of [province name]. Now, with our conquest, we have restored their rightful rule!
Option A: Saxnot is surely proud of us!
+ 50 prestige
+ 50 piety
Additional information:
I understand that such an event would be rather "fantasy-ish", but I think it would give some flavour. Think of it like the Germanic pagan equivalent to the "City sacked!" events for the Mongols.
- The burning of the Holy Tree:
Trigger:
This event would fire whenever a Christian lord (or maybe any non-pagan) conquers Braunschweig and converts it to his religion.
Event text:
Today, a christian missionary came to our sacred tree and cut it down! The local populance saw this as sign of weakness of our gods and have converted to the religion of the blaspehemers.
Option A: We will show them the wrath of Woden!
- 50 prestige
15% chance of getting the trait "Zealous"
Additional information:
This would practically be the opposite of the "We brought our brothers back to the Old Golds!" event. I think a christian version of this event, where a christian ruler conquers Braunschweig and get's some piety and prestige for cutting down a heathen idol, could also be justified. Unlike the previous event, this has a historical basis, not only in Donar's Oak but also in the historical Irminsul, which was cut down on order of Charlemagne.
Decisions:
- Celebrate Halegmonath
Conditions:
- month has to be at least September
- characters is not at war or a prisoner
- character wealth of at least X
- piety of least X
Effect:
This decision would give a small character modifier along the lines of "Celebrating Halegmonath" (+0.05 prestige per month) and would start a small series of (generic) feasting events.
Additional information:
Basically, this would be the Saxon flavour of the generic feast and as such would work similar to the blot (albeit less bloody). Historically, it was a festival associated with harvest and was celebrated in September, where the Saxons would offer, amongst other things, cakes to their gods.
- Hold a thing
Conditions:
- characters is at least 16 years old
- characters is not at war or a prisoner
- character wealth of at least X
- prestige of least X
- can only be held every X years
Effects:
Like the Norse Great Blot, the Saxon thing would allow you to invivte all of your vassals which share your religion to an assembly of freemen. Like the "Great Blot" this could start some (generic) feasting events. Holding a thing should also give you some prestige.
Additional information:
Again, not something uncommon amongst other Germanic people such as the Norse, but suprisingly missing (as this was rather big part of Germanic society). One could also expand on the small events that can start during a thing to make it possible to form rivalriers or friendships.
Holy Sites:
- Braunschweig
This is already a holy site for the Norse, and the only one that really makes sense for the Saxons. As aforementioned, it is the supposed place of the Irminsul.
- Kent
Kent was supposedly founded by Horsa and Hengest, the two Saxons brother who led the Angles, Saxons and Jutes in their conquest of Britain.
- A county in Thuringia or Franconia
I would place a holy site in western Germany, a bit south of Saxony, to encourage Saxon players to retake Germany for the old gods.
- Anhalt
Roughly in this province should be the town of Merseburg, where the "Merseburg Incantations" where found.
I'm not sure about the last one of the holy sites, though. Maybe another in Britain, maybe one in Northern France.
Please note that this was just a small brainstorming and by no means should these suggestion be taken as the best or even good suggestion. Feel free to add some yourself!
Some last words and TL;DR
I hope this wall of text wasn't to hard to read and it made clear why I personally believe that a better representation of the Saxon pagans would enrich the game. I hope this post will start a fruitful, friendly and above anything else a civil discussion. This is a forum about a game which we all enjoy, and I would rather like to give the devs constructive ideads than to just bash them for not developing their game the way you want. (even if I probably did so, on occasion). If you want to rage or flame, please do so on an other thread, there are enough ongoing flamewars already.
TL;DR
Basically make the Saxons pagan their own religion, give them some unique decisions and events and place their holy sites further south. Flavour for them would improve and Norse could be used to specifically represent Scandinavian vikings.
Last edited:
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