The single most important thing this game needs.....

[Vlad123]

Problem is, the fix in the earlier games of hoi would not serve hoi4 well which has evolved to a different game.

I don't think so: I think PDX wanted to try to change things that are too essential. As I told, there was this game that had no limits in recruiting troops and everyone ended up having huge armies, to make you understand one with a number of states equal to 10 in Europe, could recruit a bigger army than China, USSR and USA put together and fielded with TWO Dockyard (REPEAT TWO! 2!) A naval fleet larger than the US and UK combined. And all because there was no army limit given by maintenance. Let me be clear in Hoi4 the Manpower redoes VERY slowly and this "blocks" a little ... but not much. From my experience in the videogame field, the army limit (and ships and planes therefore included) serves not only for realism or to avoid lag, but for balance. If tomorrow you take Eu4, remove the gold upkeep, you get the result that the AI spams troops as if there was no tomorrow, instead if you also see the gameplay, you see that a large part of the budget is absorbed by military expenses (including fortresses) followed (usually) by the colonies and missionaries.
The army is mainly a cost! And that's that! In MMOs you can smooth out the cost of the army by stealing resources from the enemy (as on Ck2 and Ck3 you do with the Vikings: D) but the army is mainly for defending yourself (basic) and waging offensive wars (to conquer industries and resources on Hoi4 and therefore "pays for itself like this").

 

[Feeblezak]

If i remember exist a mod can do this...but is too old... and other PDX games have the maintain: The money...because ALL games of PDX have money! The old Hoi uses "supplies" and TC to limit the army...these two are removed in hoi4 and create these problem! In another game the problem are these: No mainteins of army, can snowballing create other problem (but in this game are more heavy because the manpower refill very fast) i think if army have a maintein cost much problem of Hoi4 (lag late game, spamming etc) disappear magically.

Money is meaningless in a total war economy. Practically every combatant went bankrupt within months of the beginning of hostilities and became full command economies.

Your farm/mine/factory will produce this amount of product and you will sell it for this price. If you don’t you will be arrested and we will find someone who will.

They dealt with the consequences after the war was over.

 

[Vlad123]

Money is meaningless in a total war economy. Practically every combatant went bankrupt within months of the beginning of hostilities and became full command economies.

Your farm/mine/factory will produce this amount of product and you will sell it for this price. If you don’t you will be arrested and we will find someone who will.

They dealt with the consequences after the war was over.

not exacatly, this is true on URSS...
Certain workers in the occupied countries received a salary and in the labor camps they also had ... how to say ... "buildings with which to find female companions" (I don't know if this can be said on the forum).
sector increased from 30 to 100%.
The process was of three kinds.
First of all, its structural reorganization.

Concentration of the highest possible number of competences in the Ministry of Armaments, removing it as much as possible from other ministries and armed forces (substantial exception of the Amt I and IV of the RSHA SS which from that point of view were organized like the Magliana gang)

Rationalization of processes, precisely from the design and production point of view, with greater use of manufacturing processes with greater productivity per man / hour (e.g. molding instead of milling)

Third, but not least.
Restructuring of the domestic war economy, for example by eliminating all production of the "superfluous" (a stupid stupid example. In Germany until 1944 they still produced toys for children. By 1939 these productions in the UK had ceased)

for the ussr:
Socialist economy does not provide for internal bills (and liquidated the overrun and overdiscounted Land & Lease accounts after the war)

for germany:
The Reich, on the other hand, is more complex.
More or less he paid for everything immediately, but de facto for internal use the Marco was like a fiat currency, and let's say that the international exchange of goods and raw materials at least with the occupied countries was not a normal "fair" trade balance.
Then he left a lot of unpaid credits anyway
Also because it was essentially a capitalist oligarchy with a certain degree of dirigisme.

end school style explanation.

In case you don't want to resort you have money (but it would be great if you used them) you can use the supplies (the supply resource as in the old hoi) + the "transport capacity" that is you can also have 1kkk of supplies, but if you don't have enough trucks / cargo to transport them you have the same malus.

 

[.Raptor.]

Please remember to distiguish military industry and civilian one, armies do not require only military produced weapon and gear, they need everything from money for themselves and their families, the food they eat to the clothes they wear.

Because in this game economy is represented by civs is why I propsed the idea that I did.

A nation would simply not be capable of fielding a decent army without a decent economy, at least not for long but only for a while

 

[Deliberus]

While I think money is completely useless in a game like this (as Feeblezak noted) I do think there should be some other way to prevent division spam that's so common. Fuel is already one of those limiting factors but it's clearly not enough as it only applies to motorised vehicles/industry. Rations from Endsieg is an interesting concept and I'd like to see that taken further in the main game but we'll see how that goes...

 

[Vlad123]

Please remember to distiguish military industry and civilian one, armies do not require only military produced weapon and gear, they need everything from money for themselves and their families, the food they eat to the clothes they wear.

Because in this game economy is represented by civs is why I propsed the idea that I did.

A nation would simply not be capable of fielding a decent army without a decent economy, at least not for long but only for a while

True, but consumer good what simulates? Anyway the only exception are, historically the Prussia, but them are " A army with a country".
The British economy had to make a lot of debts with the USA, the USSR had to pay (albeit in a super deferred form) the LL, Germany gave a down payment and the rest would have paid after the war was over. The USA had an economy initially set up by the New Deal, then by military orders (I will not be making a papyrus on why military orders are good for the economy) and finally by the real war which increased in disproportionate military orders. In short: If your state is not invaded or bombed, military orders create jobs and it's all "growing economy" without malus. I repeat, I do not want to do an essay on the war economy, its effects etc (also because 1) it is not an economic forum and 2) I do not have the desire)

 

[.Raptor.]

True, but consumer good what simulates? Anyway the only exception are, historically the Prussia, but them are " A army with a country".
The British economy had to make a lot of debts with the USA, the USSR had to pay (albeit in a super deferred form) the LL, Germany gave a down payment and the rest would have paid after the war was over. The USA had an economy initially set up by the New Deal, then by military orders (I will not be making a papyrus on why military orders are good for the economy) and finally by the real war which increased in disproportionate military orders. In short: If your state is not invaded or bombed, military orders create jobs and it's all "growing economy" without malus. I repeat, I do not want to do an essay on the war economy, its effects etc (also because 1) it is not an economic forum and 2) I do not have the desire)

I think consumer goods simulate the private civilian only part of the economy while civs that are available for construction and trade simulate the let's say state's own spendable portion of the economy.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I don't think so: I think PDX wanted to try to change things that are too essential. As I told, there was this game that had no limits in recruiting troops and everyone ended up having huge armies, to make you understand one with a number of states equal to 10 in Europe, could recruit a bigger army than China, USSR and USA put together and fielded with TWO Dockyard (REPEAT TWO! 2!) A naval fleet larger than the US and UK combined. And all because there was no army limit given by maintenance. Let me be clear in Hoi4 the Manpower redoes VERY slowly and this "blocks" a little ... but not much. From my experience in the videogame field, the army limit (and ships and planes therefore included) serves not only for realism or to avoid lag, but for balance. If tomorrow you take Eu4, remove the gold upkeep, you get the result that the AI spams troops as if there was no tomorrow, instead if you also see the gameplay, you see that a large part of the budget is absorbed by military expenses (including fortresses) followed (usually) by the colonies and missionaries.
The army is mainly a cost! And that's that! In MMOs you can smooth out the cost of the army by stealing resources from the enemy (as on Ck2 and Ck3 you do with the Vikings: D) but the army is mainly for defending yourself (basic) and waging offensive wars (to conquer industries and resources on Hoi4 and therefore "pays for itself like this").

I've never played Hoi1-3. I've only played Hoi4. All I know is, if we drastically change how armies are built/maintained to such a scale, you might as well not allow people to play 80% of the other countries on the gameboard. Alot of the time they spend making focus trees would have been for nothing. Would also mean that people paid for something that they really won't get to use. That's my issue with a drastic change like this.

There is a problem with late game lag for sure, but the current solution in this thread would just make the game worse in other ways.

 

[Vlad123]

I've never played Hoi1-3. I've only played Hoi4. All I know is, if we drastically change how armies are built/maintained to such a scale, you might as well not allow people to play 80% of the other countries on the gameboard. Alot of the time they spend making focus trees would have been for nothing. Would also mean that people paid for something that they really won't get to use. That's my issue with a drastic change like this.

There is a problem with late game lag for sure, but the current solution in this thread would just make the game worse in other ways.

The problem is (allow me the joke) to choose which problem is minor. If in order to play Hoi4 correctly, I need to have a NASA PC so that I don't get there for troop spam or if what I paid for earlier is no longer useful ...
* seriousness * well, joke done. Then the factor of the NF, perhaps you can solve them by "updating" them by giving various bonuses to compensate for this ... moreover I remember that ALL the nations will have this limit, not only the minors.

 

[TalyonUngol]

The problem is (allow me the joke) to choose which problem is minor. If in order to play Hoi4 correctly, I need to have a NASA PC so that I don't get there for troop spam or if what I paid for earlier is no longer useful ...
* seriousness * well, joke done. Then the factor of the NF, perhaps you can solve them by "updating" them by giving various bonuses to compensate for this ... moreover I remember that ALL the nations will have this limit, not only the minors.

Yes, but the minor nations are affected on a bigger scale. Countries like USA, Soviets and Germany won't really be affected by that much unless this thing is made on a scaling grade. The more building slots you have to start the higher the effects. But that would be silly too in my opinion.

And if you really are having that much of an issue at the late game... probably time for an upgrade. Im playing on a Laptop made from 2015(It's well over 4 years old at the least). And while yes, it runs slower at the end game... it's not like it crashes or prevents me from playing. That's not a huge deal as its still playable. Could it be faster? Of course but changing the game to be something it shouldn't be just for performance is a little drastic.

 

[goodcigar]

One problem I think is that there is no manpower attrition in the game. Attrition only affects items/equipment. Has always bother me since 2016. In real life there is human attrition from desertion, missing, wounded, disease, climate (especially if you don't have winter supplies cough cough Germany).

Another problem I think is the overly simplistic and arbitrary way economy laws work. In real life the more you take your working people out of the economy and draft them into military service, the lower your economic output is. It should be a dynamic sliding scale. You can offset this economic hit somewhat by allowing women into the normally male workplace, putting children to work, developing economy technologies that boost output etc. But if you take millions of your people out of the economy and put them into military service it should seriously affect your economic output.

 

[TalyonUngol]

One problem I think is that there is no manpower attrition in the game. Attrition only affects items/equipment. Has always bother me since 2016. In real life there is human attrition from desertion, missing, wounded, disease, climate (especially if you don't have winter supplies cough cough Germany).

Another problem I think is the overly simplistic and arbitrary way economy laws work. In real life the more you take your working people out of the economy and draft them into military service, the lower your economic output is. It should be a dynamic sliding scale. You can offset this economic hit somewhat by allowing women into the normally male workplace, putting children to work, developing economy technologies that boost output etc. But if you take millions of your people out of the economy and put them into military service it should seriously affect your economic output.

I wouldn't mind seeing this but at the same time I am not sure its necessary either. The system right now works really well in terms of the manpower. They'd have to give more if you're going to take more. Keep the balance instead of tipping it to one scale.

I wouldn't mind economy laws costing more but they should give more then.

 

[Dlin369]

I'd say for population it's fine that countries largely don't run out of manpower in a raw sense unless they are really small - physically there should be largely no shortage of men (up to 25% + bonuses). That being said, practically there are the considerations that the more people you draft the more likely you'll have dire social and economic problems, which only really kick in when you go up to the higher draft laws. I think the production penalties are adequate, though maybe could be a bit more punishing. Socially though the ramifications on having such tremendous drafts should be punishing, especially if the war drags on and people are dying. The ways war support can be gained are fairly oversaturated right now, I feel like having ticking decreases in war support (with more loss for higher conscription) should exist to force the players to continue working to increase war support throughout the war

 

[Vlad123]

I'd say for population it's fine that countries largely don't run out of manpower in a raw sense unless they are really small - physically there should be largely no shortage of men (up to 25% + bonuses). That being said, practically there are the considerations that the more people you draft the more likely you'll have dire social and economic problems, which only really kick in when you go up to the higher draft laws. I think the production penalties are adequate, though maybe could be a bit more punishing. Socially though the ramifications on having such tremendous drafts should be punishing, especially if the war drags on and people are dying. The ways war support can be gained are fairly oversaturated right now, I feel like having ticking decreases in war support (with more loss for higher conscription) should exist to force the players to continue working to increase war support throughout the war

if the war not going well or the war is won, you can have a malus growing can "force" you make peace. In eu4 exist "Call for peace! The war is won, our people are tired of war!"

 

[Hoi Neuling]

There are several Mods who show how to do it. Some more complex, others much more Easy.

What the Economy need is an similar R & D for Army and Airforce like in the Navy since MTG.

As well as defenenitly an other Trading- and Supply-System.

We will see what have done as a complete Refit on the Base-Game to Upgrade the existing DLC’s and give the Basic for the big new DLC. But therefore we have to be Patient for a while.

After all goes well we get an 1 Hour to 1,5 Hour reading List for the complete Refit Base Version and the new DLC.

 

[kimidf]

I think the game needs an EU IV style finance system where the troops have a daily cost that would make there a lot less spam units on the map

Also a fairly deep reworking of the diplomatic system is currently still too simple and shallow compared to other similar games of the same company and theme makes it unattractive for players to use these mechanics when reality was quite important and relevant this question and I believe a system similar to the EU IV would be adequate

Another interesting addition would be a reservist system as it had in previous installments

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

I didn't intend to "click bait" you as it would serve me no pupose, would it?

That would've been true if I was a dev, content creator or ect instead of just some dude on the internet.

Dude, stop wiggling around, this is ABSOLUTELY click bait.
Your title says absolutely nothing about the content of the thread, and instead greatly appeals to its utmost importance. Every single person here clicked without knowing what to expect

There is no wiggle room here. You clickbaited, own it.

 

[.Raptor.]

Dude, stop wiggling around, this is ABSOLUTELY click bait.
Your title says absolutely nothing about the content of the thread, and instead greatly appeals to its utmost importance. Every single person here clicked without knowing what to expect

There is no wiggle room here. You clickbaited, own it.

If it helps some of you to sleep better tonight maybe I'l do it....

After all it was a very special post by a very specially celebrated person on an extremely important subject, oh heavens, Imagine the betrayal!

Lol....

 

[TalyonUngol]

I think the game needs an EU IV style finance system where the troops have a daily cost that would make there a lot less spam units on the map

Also a fairly deep reworking of the diplomatic system is currently still too simple and shallow compared to other similar games of the same company and theme makes it unattractive for players to use these mechanics when reality was quite important and relevant this question and I believe a system similar to the EU IV would be adequate

Another interesting addition would be a reservist system as it had in previous installments

They would have to scale it so the larger countries pay more in order to keep the game the way it is without the spam. Would also mean they have to rework the frontline system since you NEED crap ton of units to man borders.

 

[DaleDVM]

I've never played Hoi1-3. I've only played Hoi4. All I know is, if we drastically change how armies are built/maintained to such a scale, you might as well not allow people to play 80% of the other countries on the gameboard. Alot of the time they spend making focus trees would have been for nothing. Would also mean that people paid for something that they really won't get to use. That's my issue with a drastic change like this.

There is a problem with late game lag for sure, but the current solution in this thread would just make the game worse in other ways.

If you want to play minor countries in this game you should be prepared to have a minor effect on the war. Small countries spamming a hundred divisions is a real problem. Have fun with the new focus trees. It doesn't mean every minor country should be able to singlehandedly take over the entire world. They have already made the minor powers in this game overpowered by a lot! It is ruining the game!

If you want a sandbox game, I recommend going elsewhere. There are tons of games like that.

To the OP some sort of upkeep/supply system would be a great realistic system to fix the division spam problem in game. However, since the title of your thread doesn't even mention division spam, I don't think you should be criticizing people for suggesting what they think is the biggest problem that needs to be fixed. That is literally the title of your post.

For me the biggest problem is when the AI completely abandons a front of the war to move their units elsewhere. This happens frequently in the Sino Japanese conflict. But I have seen it happen elsewhere. This in my opinion is game breaking behavior for the AI and can literally destroy a campaign.

The poster named Question had a great list of things that need fixing as well.