The single most important thing this game needs.....

[.Raptor.]

Is IMO, some kind of upkeep seperate of produced equipment and manpower for maintaining an army.

This would fix so many problems we're dealing with now, if say each 20 width division cost 10 percent of a civ to maintain, that would mean 1 civilian factory per 10 20 widths (or 5 40 widths).

I'm not in favor of merely limiting the size of a nation's standing army, I wish a system like the one I explainied above be put in place to add an extra layer of strategic depth to game while easily fixing so many problems.

Thoughts?

 

[Herr B.]

Could you elaborate a bit more, which problem exaclty you see and want to fix with that?

Also, just saying "20 width" is not very helpful, because these 20 width could be filled with tanks or with infantery. Not exactly the same.

You could either tie it to the manpower involved (which would punish infantery), this would then represent the money paid to the soldiers as their paycheck.

Or you could tie it to the equitment cost involved (which would punish tanks), this would then represent the ammunition used in the division (but then I would recommend an upkeep in military factories).

In general, regardless of the upkeep system you're using, the strategies would shift towards deploying armies shortly before the war. I can't see any issue that this would fix, but I can see that it would increase micro, so I'm personally firmly against something like this.

PS: Naming your thread "The single most important thing this game needs....." is clickbait. If any mod sees this, could you PLEASE ament the forum rules?

 

[.Raptor.]

Death stacks, nations fielding armies they really shouldn't be able to and division spam which causes huge perfomance issues are the top 3 that it would fix.

What I purposed was a very rough idea of an upkeep system, one that could certainly be deployed using much more specific parameters.

As for Equipment and Manpower, neither represents the capability of an economy to sustain an army. in this game economy is represented by Civs.

BTW, I meant to continue what I was writing in the thread name in the thread itself, i didn't intend to "click bait" you as it would serve me no pupose, would it?

Also discussing Mod actions are against the rules so becarefull right there....

 

[Searry]

In total war, the needs of the army dictate the economy. Instead I would make economy mobilization and conscription hit the nation in more severe ways like party popularity and stability. Efficiency of the economy(like currently exists) etc. I would also make fuel availability a part of the economy to nerf Germany a bit.

 

[.Raptor.]

In total war, the needs of the army dictate the economy. Instead I would make economy mobilization and conscription hit the nation in more severe ways like party popularity and stability. Efficiency of the economy(like currently exists) etc. I would also make fuel availability a part of the economy to nerf Germany a bit.

I rather make it so you have to pay economically to sustain an army instead of just having it affect the military industry. I believe it should be treated seperately and differently.

As for party popularity and stability, I agree, it should be more fluid in terms of going up and down with respect to how the country is doing economically and millitarily.

I agree with fuel being factored into industry as well.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Death stacks, nations fielding armies they really shouldn't be able to and division spam which causes huge perfomance issues are the top 3 that it would fix.

Death Stacks? What do you mean? You mean fielding too much of an army in a singular spot that the attrition/supply is atrocious? This is on the AI. Why punish the player?
Nations fielding armies they really shouldn't have been able to: This isn't a simulator. Very dangerous to the game if we push further to the Simulator.
Division Spam causing huge performance issues? True but drastically changing how the game plays isn't the way to go about it.

 

[.Raptor.]

I wouldn't consider that a "punishment" and when the AI/Player are forced to pay an upkeep for their standing army, they wouldn't be able to have 26 divisions as spare just sitting on a port in UK.

Divisions would actually become something that legit costs are associated with.

As of now anyone and their mother could field hundereds of divisions by just producing guns and upping their conscription laws.

 

[Deliberus]

Sooooo something like rations from Endsieg?

 

[TalyonUngol]

I wouldn't consider that a "punishment" and when the AI/Player are forced to pay an upkeep for their standing army, they wouldn't be able to have 26 divisions as spare just sitting on a port in UK.

Divisions would actually become something that legit costs are associated with.

As of now anyone and their mother could field hundereds of divisions by just producing guns and upping their conscription laws.

This would just become you only play the countries with a large amount of manpower/territory like USA, Soviets or Germany. You would just negate 80% of the other countries and their focus trees which wouldn't be healthy for the game as a whole.

I'm not saying you're wrong as I absolutely understand and agree with your points but its a solution that also causes problems.

 

[.Raptor.]

Sooooo something like rations from Endsieg?

That would have it rely on the Military Industry, I proposed it relying on the Civs and taxing them.

 

[Herr B.]

BTW, I meant to continue what I was writing in the thread name in the thread itself, i didn't intend to "click bait" you as it would serve me no pupose, would it?

I of course can't see your intend, but the title (that you still haven't changed) is more or less the definition of click bait. Click bait is defined as a title, that implies the importance of an article without containing information about the topic of the article.

 

[.Raptor.]

I of course can't see your intend, but the title (that you still haven't changed) is more or less the definition of click bait. Click bait is defined as a title, that implies the importance of an article without containing information about the topic of the article.

That would've been true if I was a dev, content creator or ect instead of just some dude on the internet.
Mods can do as they wish.

 

[Feeblezak]

Why though? Why would you need to pay 1 civiliain factory per ten divisions? What does that represent?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Why though? Why would you need to pay 1 civiliain factory per ten divisions? What does that represent?

He means supplies, which are currently generated by infrastructure.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Im okay with divisions requiring extra supplies to maintain. Or a military fsctory producing food and other items. Wpuld be cool.

 

[Vlad123]

Im okay with divisions requiring extra supplies to maintain. Or a military fsctory producing food and other items. Wpuld be cool.

If i remember exist a mod can do this...but is too old... and other PDX games have the maintain: The money...because ALL games of PDX have money! The old Hoi uses "supplies" and TC to limit the army...these two are removed in hoi4 and create these problem! In another game the problem are these: No mainteins of army, can snowballing create other problem (but in this game are more heavy because the manpower refill very fast) i think if army have a maintein cost much problem of Hoi4 (lag late game, spamming etc) disappear magically.

 

[Question]

I dont see how this would fix any of the major combat problems of the game, such as :

-Recon being near useless

-Infantry having no breakthrough, so the best strategy to attacking a mountain is to throw heavy tanks at it because they have armor and breakthrough. Who needs mountaineers right?

-Line arty, AA and AT being of minimal value because infantry without them can still hold the line just fine

-40w being a thing when they would be way too large to use effectively in most cases

-Air power being useless if your units retreat too fast for CAS to arrive

-Armor system basically forces you to go heavy tanks for armor/piercing or lose, because medium tanks need ridiculous setups to pierce an equivalent heavy tank division

-AA being ridiculously powerful to the point that 2x SPAA renders a division virtually invulnerable to CAS while killing hundreds of planes

-Air units set to naval strikes auto detect any fleet, every 8 hours, even if they are 1944 subs with improved snorkels

-Carriers unable to compete with the 10k land fighter spam due to tiny deck sizes

-If you have two ports next to each other, supply only goes through 1 port instead of using all available nearby ports, resulting in predictable supply chokepoints.

-Artillery being "just soft attack" which is rendered pointless by spamming more tanks (which have equal or better soft attack for the same combat width, in addition to brekathrough)

-All those stupid country leaders with artillery traits that only benefit artillery divisions, which nobody builds (it requires enough artillery to transform the unit to use the artillery model, which means you have an expensive and weak unit)

-Air combat basically boils down to who cna spam out the most/best fighters

-Going heavy fighters causes you to lose the air war, making it a horrible idea even in SP

-Why waste time researching naval bombers when you can use 1036 CAS/TACs to easily sink fleets with fully upgraded AA?

 

[TalyonUngol]

If i remember exist a mod can do this...but is too old... and other PDX games have the maintain: The money...because ALL games of PDX have money! The old Hoi uses "supplies" and TC to limit the army...these two are removed in hoi4 and create these problem! In another game the problem are these: No mainteins of army, can snowballing create other problem (but in this game are more heavy because the manpower refill very fast) i think if army have a maintein cost much problem of Hoi4 (lag late game, spamming etc) disappear magically.

Problem is, the fix in the earlier games of hoi would not serve hoi4 well which has evolved to a different game.

 

[Deliberus]

I dont see how this would fix any of the major combat problems of the game, such as :

-Recon being near useless

-Infantry having no breakthrough, so the best strategy to attacking a mountain is to throw heavy tanks at it because they have armor and breakthrough. Who needs mountaineers right?

-Line arty, AA and AT being of minimal value because infantry without them can still hold the line just fine

-40w being a thing when they would be way too large to use effectively in most cases

-Air power being useless if your units retreat too fast for CAS to arrive

-Armor system basically forces you to go heavy tanks for armor/piercing or lose, because medium tanks need ridiculous setups to pierce an equivalent heavy tank division

-AA being ridiculously powerful to the point that 2x SPAA renders a division virtually invulnerable to CAS while killing hundreds of planes

-Air units set to naval strikes auto detect any fleet, every 8 hours, even if they are 1944 subs with improved snorkels

-Carriers unable to compete with the 10k land fighter spam due to tiny deck sizes

-If you have two ports next to each other, supply only goes through 1 port instead of using all available nearby ports, resulting in predictable supply chokepoints.

-Artillery being "just soft attack" which is rendered pointless by spamming more tanks (which have equal or better soft attack for the same combat width, in addition to brekathrough)

-All those stupid country leaders with artillery traits that only benefit artillery divisions, which nobody builds (it requires enough artillery to transform the unit to use the artillery model, which means you have an expensive and weak unit)

-Air combat basically boils down to who cna spam out the most/best fighters

-Going heavy fighters causes you to lose the air war, making it a horrible idea even in SP

-Why waste time researching naval bombers when you can use 1036 CAS/TACs to easily sink fleets with fully upgraded AA?

This guy I love this guy, give this guy a medal.

How long have you been playing by the way? (SP or MP)

 

[.Raptor.]

I dont see how this would fix any of the major combat problems of the game, such as :

-Recon being near useless

-Infantry having no breakthrough, so the best strategy to attacking a mountain is to throw heavy tanks at it because they have armor and breakthrough. Who needs mountaineers right?

-Line arty, AA and AT being of minimal value because infantry without them can still hold the line just fine

-40w being a thing when they would be way too large to use effectively in most cases

-Air power being useless if your units retreat too fast for CAS to arrive

-Armor system basically forces you to go heavy tanks for armor/piercing or lose, because medium tanks need ridiculous setups to pierce an equivalent heavy tank division

-AA being ridiculously powerful to the point that 2x SPAA renders a division virtually invulnerable to CAS while killing hundreds of planes

-Air units set to naval strikes auto detect any fleet, every 8 hours, even if they are 1944 subs with improved snorkels

-Carriers unable to compete with the 10k land fighter spam due to tiny deck sizes

-If you have two ports next to each other, supply only goes through 1 port instead of using all available nearby ports, resulting in predictable supply chokepoints.

-Artillery being "just soft attack" which is rendered pointless by spamming more tanks (which have equal or better soft attack for the same combat width, in addition to brekathrough)

-All those stupid country leaders with artillery traits that only benefit artillery divisions, which nobody builds (it requires enough artillery to transform the unit to use the artillery model, which means you have an expensive and weak unit)

-Air combat basically boils down to who cna spam out the most/best fighters

-Going heavy fighters causes you to lose the air war, making it a horrible idea even in SP

-Why waste time researching naval bombers when you can use 1036 CAS/TACs to easily sink fleets with fully upgraded AA?

These are all real issues, I agree.

I never claimed my proposal would fix those though, I just think my proposal would help get rid of the mess the game is currently dealing with now with the unrealistic division spam.

So I don't really think what you said was relevant to what i was talking about. perhaps you are talking the importance of mentioned problems (how important is one compared to the other)?

And if so while I agree with everything you said being problems, I think as of now the topic of this thread is the most important one.