The Sick Man of Europe

[Selzro]

I'm still curious as to the relationship with Egypt. I know very little about the Ottoman empire IRL but weren't they nominally part of the empire? I wonder if that'll be represented in any way in the game. They even seem to have a subject state in Hejaz in one of the screenshots which, again, don't really know the history, but I thought that was interesting.

This is what interests me most. In Vic2 Egypt was an unciv so the Ottomans beat it easily in their early game wars. In real life, Egypt had a better army than the Ottomans and could have taken over the empire if the great powers hadn't intervened. Now that the civ/unciv automatic tech disparity is no longer a thing it will be interesting to see how an aggressive Egypt can affect the early game, potentially reshaping the East Mediterranean in the first decades of the game.

 

[Drakken]

Ottomans should also have an important role in the Scramble of Africa in the game - they were in the Berlin Conference after all - especially if they manage to keep their territories in the north. Other GPs defining the rules to colonize the continent without the Ottomans wouldn't feel right to me.

Weren't Portugal, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden-Norway represented at the Berlin Conference as well? Hardly great powers.

 

[deezee]

I imagine that quite a few countries were represented at the Berlin conference, that doesn't mean they all were realistically going to get anything out of it. You would need to be an actual GP with a modern fleet for that.

The list of countries represented at the Berlin Conference is public and easily available on Wikipedia. Obviously, out of the 14 countries represented, many of them were not great powers (Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, and Sweden-Norway stand out here as second-rate powers).

But Belgium is not a great power with a modern fleet, and they arguably ended up getting more than the Germans. Portugal was in quite a similar situation to the Ottomans - both were declining powers that previously held territory in Africa and actually lost it at the expense of African powers (Egypt for Ottomans, Oman for the Portuguese). Portugal also received territory at the Berlin Conference.

A priori, I'd argue that the Ottomans had a more realistic case for gaining territory than either of those two, who actually did gain territory. In that sense, I would say that the Ottomans gaining territory would not be a shockingly unrealistic outcome if the diplomatic situation was favorable to them. There's a pretty decent argument that Belgium and Portugal were the least significant power represented at the conference, and both of them were big beneficiaries.

 

[Kompetan]

Using real life outcomes to deter the outcomes in a game that basically tries to let you do what you can do in that time period is not good if you use thats not what historically happened then there is no point to playing the game. They are invited to berlin conference because they are countries of interest however they did not get anything because they did not have the power to project their demands. In real if ottomans said we want all territory below tripoli and egypt they would be scoffed at, but in the game by the time berlin conf happens I might be collected maybe all the coastal regions on africa and had a greater navy than GB to blockade maybe all of africa from europe than there is no need to even berlin conference because any ideas about europeans trying to acquire colonies in africa is a casus belli for ottomans.

Also, about being near death I think game should allow Ottomans to recover. Annex all of egypt in oriental crises, a decision to convince great powers to let him annex greece so that they can be more powerful against russian expansion or get risk of intervention again but do it any way solo. Integration of romanian principalites and re absorption of serbia. And the one I did not like the most is crimea war, if russia won they get lots but for ottomans its status quo, if this is gonna be scripted which it might be necessary for AI Ottoman empire to stand against russia, they should give the player ottoman an option, fight solo if won get crimeate khanate and black sea coast maybe indepence for caucasus but lost even harsher conditions for ottomans or ask for help which enables gb and france and sardinia piemont to enter war

 

[Grim Deadman]

But Belgium is not a great power with a modern fleet, and they arguably ended up getting more than the Germans.

Indeed, because Belgium was the favourite pet country of an actual GP with a massive modern fleet that incidentally was very much interested in denying said territory to other GPs. Of course, if in the game the Ottomans become Britain's favourite friend, then I absolutely see them getting chunks of Africa, for the same reasons.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

The list of countries represented at the Berlin Conference is public and easily available on Wikipedia. Obviously, out of the 14 countries represented, many of them were not great powers (Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, and Sweden-Norway stand out here as second-rate powers).

But Belgium is not a great power with a modern fleet, and they arguably ended up getting more than the Germans. Portugal was in quite a similar situation to the Ottomans - both were declining powers that previously held territory in Africa and actually lost it at the expense of African powers (Egypt for Ottomans, Oman for the Portuguese). Portugal also received territory at the Berlin Conference.

A priori, I'd argue that the Ottomans had a more realistic case for gaining territory than either of those two, who actually did gain territory. In that sense, I would say that the Ottomans gaining territory would not be a shockingly unrealistic outcome if the diplomatic situation was favorable to them. There's a pretty decent argument that Belgium and Portugal were the least significant power represented at the conference, and both of them were big beneficiaries.

It's not like German colonial power projection forces during the Berlin Conference were terribly impressive either. The navy as whole was on level with that of Austria and was essentially Scandi coast defense navy plus. The colonial forces were a dozen unarmoured iron sail-and-steam corvettes, with specs that would have not been impressive a decade before they were completed (though to be fair this was not unusual, even Britain was only just launching the fast protected cruisers of Leander class).

 

[Gnufan]

Any sort of equivalent to the Berlin Conference needs to be completely dynamic and take into account the situation in the actual game in my opinion. If the Ottomans can somehow remain a great power like they could in Victoria 2 I see no reason why they should not be able to play a big part in diplomatic affairs like that.

 

[Nikolai]

Now I know it’s way too early and the devs are yet to disclose how most of the game mechanics actually work, but I would like to draw attention at the IMHO most complex issue of the time period: the Ottoman Empire and its decline. I am by no means a specialist on the time period, but it always seemed to me in Vic2 that you were extremely limited in dealing with the Ottomans, and aside from some scripted events the Turks didn’t play nearly the role in European diplomacy that they played IRL. So, here’s my wishlist for the Ottoman Empire:

1. They have to matter to the Great Powers. GB has to have an interest in what happens in the Eastern Mediterranean, so should Russia. A-H must see an interest in the Balkans. In Vic2 all three could ignore the place entirely in spite of massive historical geopolitical interest.
2. There must be a way for the Ottomans to keep together and modernize. I am sure, in fact, that the devs have already thought about this one, I’m just putting it here so that people wouldn’t think that I left it out on purpose
3. GP must have different diplomatic tools at their disposal when dealing with the Ottomans. E.g., a deft diplomatic approach by Russia, in opposition to what they actually did, might help avoid the Crimean War, with favourable results for both her and the Ottomans.

Perhaps some of this stuff will have to wait for a DLC or future patch, I don’t really mind. But I very much hope the team will make sure to devote some time to this very important region.

The Capitulations, which were granted in the 15th century by the Ottomans at a time they were the strong part and didn't know how West European economy worked (it was prudent then, but disastrous when the West got stronger and their economy developed as it did), should play a huge part. It was a large problem for the Ottomans which hindered their options massively in regards to modernizing as it severely limited their economic options. The European powers had a big interest in keeping the Capitulations of course, and when the OE fell and Turkey managed to remove them, Turkey's economy grew massively immidiately.

 

[Lapoleon]

Any sort of equivalent to the Berlin Conference needs to be completely dynamic and take into account the situation in the actual game in my opinion. If the Ottomans can somehow remain a great power like they could in Victoria 2 I see no reason why they should not be able to play a big part in diplomatic affairs like that.

Something like an event popping up 5 years ahead of time which allows the top X countries to "spend" their influence on an accumulating pool. Then when the conference happens the relevant nations can have a bidding war spending their current Prestige + saved Influence on colonial holdings.

This might somewhat simulate Leopolds incessant lobbying for a place in the sun.