The Sick Man of Europe

[Grim Deadman]

Now I know it’s way too early and the devs are yet to disclose how most of the game mechanics actually work, but I would like to draw attention at the IMHO most complex issue of the time period: the Ottoman Empire and its decline. I am by no means a specialist on the time period, but it always seemed to me in Vic2 that you were extremely limited in dealing with the Ottomans, and aside from some scripted events the Turks didn’t play nearly the role in European diplomacy that they played IRL. So, here’s my wishlist for the Ottoman Empire:

1. They have to matter to the Great Powers. GB has to have an interest in what happens in the Eastern Mediterranean, so should Russia. A-H must see an interest in the Balkans. In Vic2 all three could ignore the place entirely in spite of massive historical geopolitical interest.
2. There must be a way for the Ottomans to keep together and modernize. I am sure, in fact, that the devs have already thought about this one, I’m just putting it here so that people wouldn’t think that I left it out on purpose
3. GP must have different diplomatic tools at their disposal when dealing with the Ottomans. E.g., a deft diplomatic approach by Russia, in opposition to what they actually did, might help avoid the Crimean War, with favourable results for both her and the Ottomans.

Perhaps some of this stuff will have to wait for a DLC or future patch, I don’t really mind. But I very much hope the team will make sure to devote some time to this very important region.

 

[Leoreth]

I think from what we know of the Diplomatic Plays mechanic it may be a useful tool to model the behaviour of the other European powers around the Ottomans. As in, Russia needs to start a diplomatic play to claim a part of the Ottoman Empire they are interested in and Britain and France may wind up on the Ottoman side not because of their love for the Ottomans but to curb Russian expansion.

I think most of the interactions around the Ottoman Empire could arise naturally from this system, but that depends on how it is implemented exactly. I hope they pay attention to condition the rules and the AI so that these things are possible to occur.

Concentrating work on that area would definitely be preferable than writing a whole bunch of Crimean War etc. scripted events that are fired when certain conditions arise.

 

[Alfred Dreyfus]

A hope Ottomans and Spain start as Great Powers in Vic3 like they did in Vic2.

It was very fun to see the superpowers from the EU4 time period start with that status in Vic2, watch them decline as new powers like Italy or Japan take their place in the 8 Great Powers.

 

[Lucododosor]

Ottomans should also have an important role in the Scramble of Africa in the game - they were in the Berlin Conference after all - especially if they manage to keep their territories in the north. Other GPs defining the rules to colonize the continent without the Ottomans wouldn't feel right to me.

 

[Grim Deadman]

Ottomans should also have an important role in the Scramble of Africa in the game - they were in the Berlin Conference after all - especially if they manage to keep their territories in the north. Other GPs defining the rules to colonize the continent without the Ottomans wouldn't feel right to me.

Dunno, maybe if they modernize, then yes; otherwise I see no point in them trying to get new territories when they can't hold what they already have.

 

[deezee]

A hope Ottomans and Spain start as Great Powers in Vic3 like they did in Vic2.

It was very fun see the superpowers from the EU4 time period start with that status in Vic3, watch them decline and new powers like Italy or Japan take their place in the 8 Great Powers.

FYI the devs have already stated that the great powers are no longer fixed at 8. Instead of being the top 8 powers, it's any powers whose prestige exceeds the average prestige of all recognized nations by a certain amount.

Dunno, maybe if they modernize, then yes; otherwise I see no point in them trying to get new territories when they can't hold what they already have.

As the previous poster pointed out, historically the Ottomans couldn't hold what they already have and yet still were represented in the Berlin Conference. I don't see why we shouldn't expect the same in game.

 

[Grim Deadman]

As the previous poster pointed out, historically the Ottomans couldn't hold what they already have and yet still were represented in the Berlin Conference. I don't see why we shouldn't expect the same in game

I imagine that quite a few countries were represented at the Berlin conference, that doesn't mean they all were realistically going to get anything out of it. You would need to be an actual GP with a modern fleet for that.

 

[BrytonJSwan]

Very excited to turn the sick man of europe into the siiiiiiick man of europe.

I'm still curious as to the relationship with Egypt. I know very little about the Ottoman empire IRL but weren't they nominally part of the empire? I wonder if that'll be represented in any way in the game. They even seem to have a subject state in Hejaz in one of the screenshots which, again, don't really know the history, but I thought that was interesting.

 

[Paghalay]

Who are the Ottomans? According to my history books that whole region was left uninhabited after a freak earthquake razed Constantinople in 1453. This sounds like you're talking about alt-history to me!

 

[Grim Deadman]

Who are the Ottomans? According to my history books that whole region was left uninhabited after a freak earthquake razed Constantinople in 1453. This sounds like you're talking about alt-history to me!

I am sure there will be mods about it on Day 1. Sneaky reference to the Forbidden Words noted.

 

[Dayvit78]

I think one of the things the OP is talking about is the strategic game.
The Great Powers shouldn't just let the Ottoman's decline and everyone gets a piece - who gets what piece is very important for balance. Similarly, can Russia recognize that it wants ocean access (market?) and can Britain want to stop that?
So in other words, can the game model what the GPs care about from a strategic perspective?

 

[InsidiousMage]

A major problem for the Ottomans was that they based a lot of their legitimacy from Islamic law and so a lot of modernizing efforts were stymied by the clergy, specifically their attempts to Westernize. I'm curious to see how that is going to be reflected in the game.

Similarly, can Russia recognize that it wants ocean access (market?) and can Britain want to stop that?
So in other words, can the game model what the GPs care about from a strategic perspective?

The Russians specifically wanted to control the Bosporus and Dardanelles, which the French and English really didn't want them to have, which was a recurring diplomatic issue in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

 

[Buttons12345]

Now I know it’s way too early and the devs are yet to disclose how most of the game mechanics actually work, but I would like to draw attention at the IMHO most complex issue of the time period: the Ottoman Empire and its decline. I am by no means a specialist on the time period, but it always seemed to me in Vic2 that you were extremely limited in dealing with the Ottomans, and aside from some scripted events the Turks didn’t play nearly the role in European diplomacy that they played IRL. So, here’s my wishlist for the Ottoman Empire:

1. They have to matter to the Great Powers. GB has to have an interest in what happens in the Eastern Mediterranean, so should Russia. A-H must see an interest in the Balkans. In Vic2 all three could ignore the place entirely in spite of massive historical geopolitical interest.
2. There must be a way for the Ottomans to keep together and modernize. I am sure, in fact, that the devs have already thought about this one, I’m just putting it here so that people wouldn’t think that I left it out on purpose
3. GP must have different diplomatic tools at their disposal when dealing with the Ottomans. E.g., a deft diplomatic approach by Russia, in opposition to what they actually did, might help avoid the Crimean War, with favourable results for both her and the Ottomans.

Perhaps some of this stuff will have to wait for a DLC or future patch, I don’t really mind. But I very much hope the team will make sure to devote some time to this very important region.

My opinions

1. GPs should care about the Ottoman Empire for the same reason they did in OTL, because it benefits them. Russia wants influence over the Balkans in general and Dardanelles specifically, Britain wants to project its presence into the Mediterranean and Egypt, other powers may want to advance into Tripolitania and Tunisia, or prevent other powers from doing the same

2. Yeah, at the same time it should be difficult, internal conflicts and external weakness should make modernizing and empowering the empire a challenge even for a player, not a matter of win two early wars and now you can expect to go toe to toe with Russia and win reliably.

3. I think something the game really should have is actual conferences, where powers can propose various terms of an agreement instead of scripted events (which I know paradox has been moving away from for a while)

 

[Elminster12]

The Ottomans did manage to stabilize themselves fairly well in the end, they just wound up on the losing end of the Great War, were carved up and became deligitimized and sidelined by nationalist forces unwilling to assent to the loss of parts of Anatolia.
They should have a hard time keeping their hands on the Balkans: they're now significantly weaker than Russia, which has a strong interest in their dissolution, and smaller, more sympathetic(in the eyes of the other Euro GPs, at least) states like Greece and Serbia are hungry for their Balkan lands. Plus, both Russia and France had a strong interest in Palestine and casting themselves as the "protectors of Christians".
Elsewhere, however, things were more stable, in part because the Ottomans were able to make the (extremely credible) case that their Muslim Arab subjects could not achieve true independence, but would instead find themselves the colonial subjects of Christian European powers(as indeed happened, more or less).

 

[Letharion]

I think one of the things the OP is talking about is the strategic game.
The Great Powers shouldn't just let the Ottoman's decline and everyone gets a piece - who gets what piece is very important for balance. Similarly, can Russia recognize that it wants ocean access (market?) and can Britain want to stop that?
So in other words, can the game model what the GPs care about from a strategic perspective?

Adding to that question: Will the Russian Empire and Great Britain be able to play the "Great Game"?

 

[mikhail321]

It would be great for the plays system to reflect things like UK getting Cyprus in exchange for agreeing to carve up the Balkan Ottoman possessions. So UK was on the side of the Ottomans but agreed to stay neutral with Ottoman’s piece as a reward. And the Berlin conference happened after the Russo-Turkish war already over, so the “play” happened when the war was already ongoing. Another interesting situation to model is the Austrian ultimatum during the Crimean war which forced (or gave pretext to) Russia to agree to make peace. Such diplomatic combinations are beyond anything I’ve seen in video games.

 

[Grim Deadman]

Russia, which has a strong interest in their dissolution

Russian policy actually fluctuated a lot, and almost never was official St.Petersburg in favour of outright dissolution. However, vocal panslavist elites did indeed favour dissolution, and became more and more influential as time went by.

 

[Prince Ire]

I think we should be worrying less about letting the Ottomans reverse their decline and more about letting that decline happen at all. In Vicky 2, the Ottomans very rarely lost any of their Balkan territory without player intervention to make sure it happened.

 

[Vernichtere]

I have little fear for the Turks. I am more concerned that the historical situation will almost never be repeated. Either the Ottomans keep themselves or the neighbors simply get parts of it for themselves. But there will be seldom such a thing as independent states in the Balkans.

 

[alanschu]

FYI the devs have already stated that the great powers are no longer fixed at 8. Instead of being the top 8 powers, it's any powers whose prestige exceeds the average prestige of all recognized nations by a certain amount.

I missed this. I like the sounds of this at this moment.