The secret reason Mega Churches are OP.

[Zenopath]

So priests are better than culture workers, by simple math:
Culture Workers produce +3 Society Research +3 Unity and consume 2 consumer goods.
If you aren't spiritualist, you have to build Achereon Monuments and get 2 culture workers if you want unity.

But Temples replace Monuments, so you can't have both.
Priests make +3 Unity +2 Society Research +5 Amenities for 2 consumer goods, but still, only 3 unity (unless you have exalted priesthood +1 unity per priest, which megacorps can't have).

So, other than trading 1 research for 5 amenities, your unity production is about same with temples as monuments, before you look at the +unity percent bonuses from spirituality.

Now you may be thinking, well brand loyalty only gives you +15% unity, and gospel of the masses gives you 1 trade per spiritualist pop (which you can get to pretty close to 100% of your population), and not extra unity, and that is true. But you know what a spiritualist mega corp CAN do?

It can build both Temples AND Monuments.
If you are not a spiritualist mega corp, you will just notice that your monuments have been replaced by "Corperate Culture Sites" which feature 2 managers (+2 Society Research +3 Unity +2 Trade Value for 2 consumer goods) instead of culture workers, but still only 6 unity.

But here is the thing. If you are spiritualist you have BOTH a culture site and a temple. Which means right at start of game, with no tech upgrades, you can make every planet with 10 population, produce a base unity of 17 each thats:

+6 from 2 priests in temple
+6 from 2 managers in corperate culture site
+4 from 2 excutives in planatery administration
+1 from 1 enforcer in plantery administration.

So if you have 3 planets with 10+ pop, which is very doable within 10 years of start if you resettle from captital, you can be generating a base unity of 56 per month! (you get 5 unity base from your empire)

Then you get +20% unity from fanatic spiritualist, +10% unity from traditional racial perk, +10% unity from Reformer ruler perk, +15% from Brand Loyality civic, and a declare saint +15% thats a +80% unity bonus, and dont forget the bonus from high stability and +5% to specialist output if you are egalitarian.

(And yes you will be using a lot of consumer goods, but with the crazy amount of trade you get from being a mega corp and gospel of the masses, switching over to Consumer benefits trade policies fixes that problem)

Long story short, it is possible to be generating well over 100 unity per month from year 2210 if you work at it, which is just bonkers.

 

[yerm]

I believe this is true for any megacorp with spiritualist ethics, unless I am crazy or it was patched. The temple is added, the monument replaced was already also replaced with corporate version, so you end up getting both. You don't necessarily have to pick gospel of the masses to do this.

 

[Zenopath]

I believe this is true for any megacorp with spiritualist ethics, unless I am crazy or it was patched. The temple is added, the monument replaced was already also replaced with corporate version, so you end up getting both. You don't necessarily have to pick gospel of the masses to do this.

Yes the basic OP is that you can have both temples and monuments. I was just building around this OP to make it even more insane.

 

[Xaos]

You're forgetting that (if I remember the math correctly) each spiritualist pop adds .5 trade value to all of your planets and branch offices. Once you get a friendly neighbor, you will never need energy districts ever again, and the number will keep going up.

 

[Less2]

If only I could could support a fleet with unity...

Really, unity gain is fast enough now. Going hard on it means either you pick up trash perks because you don't have tech yet or you run out of influence and alloys trying to spam habitats and megastructures.

 

[Zenopath]

If only I could could support a fleet with unity...

Really, unity gain is fast enough now. Going hard on it means either you pick up trash perks because you don't have tech yet or you run out of influence and alloys trying to spam habitats and megastructures.

You can always leave the ascenion picks empty till later. I get that people dont seem to care that much about unity, but if you get your unity done in early game, you can pretty much ignore empire sprawl later, and a lot of the tradition tree bonuses are definately worth it, even if you might have to wait a bit for the tech to unlock the ascenions you want.

 

[Less2]

You can always leave the ascenion picks empty till later. I get that people dont seem to care that much about unity, but if you get your unity done in early game, you can pretty much ignore empire sprawl later, and a lot of the tradition tree bonuses are definately worth it, even if you might have to wait a bit for the tech to unlock the ascenions you want.

You can ignore empire sprawl all game and get unity perks fine with a modest investment. My current empire in 2335: 850 sprawl, 2.2k pops, 6/8 perks unlocked. Still getting traditions roughly once every 4 years. Even at this size I can only barely afford to have constant megastructure construction on top of keeping my fleet going, so its not like slowing down my long-term economic growth in exchange for slightly earlier unlocks would be a great idea.

 

[wingren013]

You can always leave the ascenion picks empty till later. I get that people dont seem to care that much about unity, but if you get your unity done in early game, you can pretty much ignore empire sprawl later, and a lot of the tradition tree bonuses are definately worth it, even if you might have to wait a bit for the tech to unlock the ascenions you want.

I ignore Empire sprawl now. Earlier Ascension Perk slots aren't more important than another planet.

Unity generation isn't that important, at best you are just reliably keeping up the unity ambitions, which may seem nice, but the opportunity cost for your economy is huge to get to that point.

 

[Derp]

being able to sacrifice your economy to have an abnormally high tertiary stat like unity isn't OP, it's a novelty

 

[Zenopath]

You can ignore empire sprawl all game and get unity perks fine with a modest investment. My current empire in 2335: 850 sprawl, 2.2k pops, 6/8 perks unlocked. Still getting traditions roughly once every 4 years. Even at this size I can only barely afford to have constant megastructure construction on top of keeping my fleet going, so its not like slowing down my long-term economic growth in exchange for slightly earlier unlocks would be a great idea.

I feel like you miss the point here. Its great that after 135 years you have already won the game and have 850 sprawl and 2.2k pops and seem to be playing waiting for the end game crisis to occur. But there is something to be said towards the usefulness having two full tradition trees unlocked in year 2225 as in my current game i started in 2.2.3. And my economy is doing fine. All i had to do was build 2 buildings each on all 3 of my worlds, and i am currently pulling in 96 unity per month.

(I didn't take traditional race perk, decided not to use declare saint, and my 2nd leader doesnt have unity bonus, so its a bit lower than it could be.)

That is both the expansion and prosperity trees filled in already, probably going to take harmony and then supremency and I should be able to have all 4 of them by year 2250.

What I am suggesting here is that as an early game strategy, being able to fill in 2 tradition trees in 25 years from start of game is actually pretty powerful.

 

[Less2]

I feel like you miss the point here. Its great that after 135 years you have already won the game and have 850 sprawl and 2.2k pops and seem to be playing waiting for the end game crisis to occur. But there is something to be said towards the usefulness having two full tradition trees unlocked in year 2225 as in my current game i started in 2.2.3. And my economy is doing fine. All i had to do was build 2 buildings each on all 3 of my worlds, and i am currently pulling in 96 unity per month.

(I didn't take traditional race perk, decided not to use declare saint, and my 2nd leader doesnt have unity bonus, so its a bit lower than it could be.)

That is both the expansion and prosperity trees filled in already, probably going to take harmony and then supremency and I should be able to have all 4 of them by year 2250.

What I am suggesting here is that as an early game strategy, being able to fill in 2 tradition trees in 25 years from start of game is actually pretty powerful.

It's not a great strategy if you are either:

A. Wasting the perk on something really weak just because it's there.
or
B. Not using the perk for 30 years because you are waiting for tech.

If you could, say, build an Ecumenopolis 10 years ahead of a normal build by this, it would be great. But I highly doubt that, if anything you're further behind because the chokepoint is tech and/or alloys.

 

[wingren013]

I feel like you miss the point here. Its great that after 135 years you have already won the game and have 850 sprawl and 2.2k pops and seem to be playing waiting for the end game crisis to occur. But there is something to be said towards the usefulness having two full tradition trees unlocked in year 2225 as in my current game i started in 2.2.3. And my economy is doing fine. All i had to do was build 2 buildings each on all 3 of my worlds, and i am currently pulling in 96 unity per month.

(I didn't take traditional race perk, decided not to use declare saint, and my 2nd leader doesnt have unity bonus, so its a bit lower than it could be.)

That is both the expansion and prosperity trees filled in already, probably going to take harmony and then supremency and I should be able to have all 4 of them by year 2250.

What I am suggesting here is that as an early game strategy, being able to fill in 2 tradition trees in 25 years from start of game is actually pretty powerful.

Not really. Outside of expansion and discovery, all of the traditions require a somewhat developed empire to really take advantage of. And discovery is pretty bad right now anyways.

The best thing is that you can have both intersetellar dominion and nihilistic acquisition unlocked before you get boxed in, but that's not that huge compared to the potential ships you sacrificed due to using specialists for unity production rather than alloy production; not to mention that you will need more consumer goods production to accomodate what is being consumed by your unity workers.

 

[Promethian]

Mentions the insane trade gains from Gospel of the Masses. Concludes its OP because you can stack two buildings that it is sub optimal to stack in an overwhelming majority of situations. Gospel is overpowered because it generates massively overpowered amounts of trade.

 

[Zenopath]

Mentions the insane trade gains from Gospel of the Masses. Concludes its OP because you can stack two buildings that it is sub optimal to stack in an overwhelming majority of situations. Gospel is overpowered because it generates massively overpowered amounts of trade.

I am using gospel of the masses and consumer benefits to generate enough consumer goods without actually having any civilian industries. it is a very key component of making this work, so yeah, i agree gospel of the masses is pretty OP, because it allows you to stack 8 consumer good consuming jobs per planet and still have possitive consumer good generation. Not to mention oodles of energy of course.

Not really. Outside of expansion and discovery, all of the traditions require a somewhat developed empire to really take advantage of. And discovery is pretty bad right now anyways.

The best thing is that you can have both intersetellar dominion and nihilistic acquisition unlocked before you get boxed in, but that's not that huge compared to the potential ships you sacrificed due to using specialists for unity production rather than alloy production; not to mention that you will need more consumer goods production to accomodate what is being consumed by your unity workers.

i took interstellar dominion first thing, and was using it to claim starsystems far faster than normal. I am pretty sure i had that ascention by year 10... with full expansion as first tree. Prosperity is pretty decent:
+20% mining station output
+5% specialist production
+1 clerk jobs per city district
+1 housing per city district
-10% building cost and +25% building speed for buildings and districts
-10% building and district upkeep costs
+1 merchant job per 50 pops.

I will conceed that i could have had a lot more alloy production, but, why? do you usually want to get into major wars in your first 25 years of gameplay?

 

[wingren013]

I will conceed that i could have had a lot more alloy production, but, why? do you usually want to get into major wars in your first 25 years of gameplay?

I've been starting off most of my 2.2 games with early wars to take the non populated systems of the AI. It's a good way to keep your mineral an energy income up while developing a fleet.

Prosperity is pretty decent:
+20% mining station output
+5% specialist production
+1 clerk jobs per city district
+1 housing per city district
-10% building cost and +25% building speed for buildings and districts
-10% building and district upkeep costs
+1 merchant job per 50 pops.

Nothing here us really impactful early on aside from the mining station income.

 

[Incompetent]

I think my next game will be Fanatic Xenophile + Spiritualist Megacorp with Gospel of the Masses and Franchising. Gospel gives a ton of base trade; Fanatic Xenophile gives a bonus to trade and also makes all diplomatic agreements free once you have unlocked Diplomacy. The plan would be not to blob too much directly but to make everyone my 'friend', by diplomacy/bribery if possible and by force if necessary. Who needs Universal Transactions when you can have everyone in a commerce pact, and a research agreement, and whatever level of military alliance you want (or make them a subsidiary), all for zero influence cost?

 

[Zenopath]

I've been starting off most of my 2.2 games with early wars to take the non populated systems of the AI. It's a good way to keep your mineral an energy income up while developing a fleet.


Nothing here us really impactful early on aside from the mining station income.

Everyone has different playing styles, if you go on aggressive right at the beginning, then this isnt the play style for you.

I just wanted to offer a early game strategy people can try out, because I think it works very well.

If not being able to build massive early game AI crushing fleets is the opportunity cost that you mentioned, then yes, you are correct, if i had built alloy factories instead of temples and culture centers, i would be rushing around with multiple fleets of corvettes pawning the ai for fun and profit, no doubt. But its not like you need to play that way.

I'd argue that unless you find a devouring swarm or fanatical purifier, it would actually pretty influence expensive to get much out of that tactic, and ultimately, would probably not get you much further ahead than peaceful expansion and trade deals and branch offices, etc. Early game war before galaxy is fully claimed seems wasteful, imo. But whatever works for you is fine.

 

[Strangedane]

I've been starting off most of my 2.2 games with early wars to take the non populated systems of the AI. It's a good way to keep your mineral an energy income up while developing a fleet.


Nothing here us really impactful early on aside from the mining station income.

Build cost for districts and buildings is a HUGE snowball enabler.
Having 10% more spending money early will compound itself really fast.

I'll also chime in and say that discovery and it's survey speed is the most important stat in the game if you're playing in crowded galaxies.
Being first to the chokepoints will win you games.

You sound like you play only SP on sparsely populated galaxies, which while certainly a valid game option, does not mean it is the only way to play.
And it certainly skews priority picks.

"There's no doubt that diplomacy is the worst tree however. Because if you play with no ai's on the board you'll only deal with the crisis and pirates anyways."

 

[Zenopath]

You sound like you play only SP on sparsely populated galaxies, which while certainly a valid game option, does not mean it is the only way to play.
And it certainly skews priority picks.

I suppose? I mean usually pick numbers in the exact middle range, so 6 AI 3 Advanced AI 1 fallen 1 marauder in a small galaxy (my computer isnt that new, and performance in larger galaxies is painful)

I would consider that to be average density.

I am also playing in admiral with scaling difficulty on and glavius enhanced ai as my only mod. and all the multipliers are set to 1x.

I do feel like i am in the minority of players that actually pays attention to the admin cap early game and has a mindset that you need to stay small early game before going on a massive conquest spree midgame, so I like tall gameplay early on, then when I am ready, I take over the galaxy by force. There is definately a toggle moment for me, when i say, "Ok, I am done with needing unity, my fleet is good, time to party".

Does that skew my perception that getting your unity done early game so you can not worry about it when you do go out to conquest is a viable plan? Maybe.

I guess I see unity as a chore you need to get done before you can go big on empire sprawl, so this is an early game unity rush so that when you do go big, you dont have to worry about it anymore, and you can go ahead and turn your temple into alloy factories then, lol.

 

[Strangedane]

I suppose? I mean usually pick numbers in the exact middle range, so 6 AI 3 Advanced AI 1 fallen 1 marauder in a small galaxy (my computer isnt that new, and performance in larger galaxies is painful)

I would consider that to be average density.

I am also playing in admiral with scaling difficulty on and glavius enhanced ai as my only mod. and all the multipliers are set to 1x.

I do feel like i am in the minority of players that actually pays attention to the admin cap early game and has a mindset that you need to stay small early game before going on a massive conquest spree midgame, so I like tall gameplay early on, then when I am ready, I take over the galaxy by force. There is definately a toggle moment for me, when i say, "Ok, I am done with needing unity, my fleet is good, time to party".

Does that skew my perception that getting your unity done early game so you can not worry about it when you do go out to conquest is a viable plan? Maybe.

I guess I see unity as a chore you need to get done before you can go big on empire sprawl, so this is an early game unity rush so that when you do go big, you dont have to worry about it anymore, and you can go ahead and turn your temple into alloy factories then, lol.

Makes sense i guess, about the admin cap thing.
I never really care about it and getting real estate is more important than saving a few decades of unity time.

I rarely have the empire slider less than full, and then usually 25% or more advanced starts.
I gotta move fast if i want any land.