The Schism with new religion mechanics

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Weyird

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How will the schism work with the new mechanics? They both fall under Religion: Christian. They'll be distinct faiths. Will there be some catholic and some orthodox from the earliest start date, but the schism just makes it switch from viewing each other as friendly to viewing each other as hostile?
 

Mackus

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The bad news that nothing will be done at release date. It'll just like in CK2, different branches but not outright hostile with each other.
The good news is that even the release version will mechanically support modding stuff like religions changing their features and relation with each other.
So, there will be day one mod where in 867 bookmark Catholics stay without obligatory clerical celibacy and are friendly with Orthodox, and event to change it will fire around 1050s.
 

Kapitalisti

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and event to change it will fire around 1050s.

This is why I dislike many "historical" schism mods. Why 1050's? When you start in the 800's the game will develop differently from our history 100% of the time by the 1050's so it's an arbitrary railroading event. And if you start doing the necessarily complex event modifiers you're gonna end up with an insanely clunky house of cards. So I'm totally fine with Catholics and Orthodox being separate from game start.
 

Rubidium

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This is why I dislike many "historical" schism mods. Why 1050's? When you start in the 800's the game will develop differently from our history 100% of the time by the 1050's so it's an arbitrary railroading event. And if you start doing the necessarily complex event modifiers you're gonna end up with an insanely clunky house of cards. So I'm totally fine with Catholics and Orthodox being separate from game start.
Yep. Not to mention that 1054 is an arbitrary, retroactively chosen date anyway. There were major differences between Eastern and Western Christians even before 867 (both culturally and theologically), and there was a shared sense of identity in other respects well after 1066 (for instance, just a couple decades later, the Orthodox Byzantine Emperor would send a letter to the Pope asking for help from his fellow Christians against the Muslims, and the Pope would respond by organizing a Crusade ostensibly to help his fellow Christians in the East).

1054 was only chosen by later historians as a concrete date, tied to a specific (minor, but dateable) event, for a more gradual process. If you went back in time to 1055, it wouldn't be seen as more than the latest in a series of conflicts.
 

Mackus

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Why 1050's?
Inertia.

Pope went on collision course with secular rulers in eight century, when Byzantines left Rome, and Papal State was defacto created. Since then Popes had no hard limit on their authority, and were slowly accumulating power. So, eventually they'd make the grab.

There are of course, hundreds of potential conditions that could modify the odds that schism would occur.
Is Pope landed or landless? Is his demesne large or weak? Is he independent or vassal to an emperor? Is he humble or ambitious? Is Byzantium strong, or did it just suffer tremendous blow from infidels?

I once proposed complex mechanism of papal and imperial authority with ecumenical council for an CK2 expansion.

But this 1050s event is not an expansion proposal. This is do-in-one-day-good-enough-for-now-mod proposal.
 

Zhetone

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Inertia.

Pope went on collision course with secular rulers in eight century, when Byzantines left Rome, and Papal State was defacto created. Since then Popes had no hard limit on their authority, and were slowly accumulating power. So, eventually they'd make the grab.

There are of course, hundreds of potential conditions that could modify the odds that schism would occur.
Is Pope landed or landless? Is his demesne large or weak? Is he independent or vassal to an emperor? Is he humble or ambitious? Is Byzantium strong, or did it just suffer tremendous blow from infidels?

I once proposed complex mechanism of papal and imperial authority with ecumenical council for an CK2 expansion.

But this 1050s event is not an expansion proposal. This is do-in-one-day-good-enough-for-now-mod proposal.
this is an incredibly biased take on the great schism and also illustrates a certain amount of ignorance regarding east-west christian relations
 

Ezumiyr

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There are of course, hundreds of potential conditions that could modify the odds that schism would occur.
... or the exact nature of that schism.
What happened in history is no guarantee that it had to happen in this exact way. Before that schism, there was centuries of all kinds of divides and diversity within the Church that didn't necessarily ended with "formal" schism, or that ended with much more hostility between different groups.
It was really not a binary situation.
 

Mackus

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this is an incredibly biased take on the great schism and also illustrates a certain amount of ignorance regarding east-west christian relations
Care to elaborate?
 

Khelder

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One word for inter-christian relations, Ecumenism. If it wasn´t the case of a herecy relation ie. Catholic/Cathar the Chaledonian, if I wrote that rigth, christian churces weren´t exactly hostile towards each other, as they desired to subjucate not crush the other contenders. Not an expert of the schism, but as far as I know it was a question of loyalties, whether all bishops should swear loyalty to the Bishop of Rome or not, this is one reason why Pope demanded submission by the last Eastern Roman Emperor to him as head of christianity for the meager help they received.

When the ERE forces left Rome the Schism was as good as started, Eastern Orthodoxy was dependent on the Empire to enforce its rule and the reach of the Imperial sphere of influence was the reach of Orthodoxy. By the earlier start date Catholics had already openly opposed the rule of the Roman Emperor in the East as they had crowned Charlemagne as an emperor in the west.

There might have been attempts to reconcile, but the seeds of the schism were already there in the game start. Emperor used to be the authority on christianity, being the at least in name protector of the faith and the councils, but this had already been challenged by the Popes disregard to the empire and tradition when he elevated himself over the Imperial crown by crowning Charlemagne.

As said I am not a Theologian, but this is my take on the political side of the Schism.
 

omega20056

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Having previously been of the opinion that Catholicism and Orthodoxy should be united pre-1054, I now believe the schism and schisms in general would be better represented by an ecumenism value that is shared between different faiths within the same branch. For example, the Byzantine Empire going iconoclast would reduce the ecumenical relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy by a certain percent. At low ecumenism, both faiths would see each other as heretical. At high ecumenism, they would recognise each other as equals in their respective spheres. The Ecumenical Patriarch would recognise the Pope as Patriarch of the West, and the Pope would recognise the Ecumenical Patriarch as head of the Eastern church. There would be new mechanics, events, and decisions based around raising and lowering ecumenism, and traits would also play a role. For those who prefer war to diplomacy or just can't be bothered with the system, conquering the holy sites of rival faiths and vassalising their religious head would allow you to forcibly mend a schism in a manner similar to LoR's "Mend the Schism" decision. Mending the Great Schism would, for example, place the Pope under your control as Orthodox Patriarch of the West, while mending the schism with, say, the Egyptian Coptic church would convert Coptic provinces to Orthodox and de-establish the Coptic Papacy, with the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria taking it place.
 
Last edited:

Byzantium2000

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Having previously been of the opinion that Catholicism and Orthodoxy should be united pre-1054, I now believe the schism and schisms in general would be better represented by an ecumenism value that is shared between different faiths within the same branch. For example, the Byzantine Empire going iconoclast would reduce the ecumenical relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy by a certain percent. At low ecumenism, both faiths would see each other as heretical. At high ecumenism, they would recognise each other as equals in their respective spheres. The Ecumenical Patriarch would recognise the Pope as Patriarch of the West, and the Pope would recognise the Ecumenical Patriarch as head of the Eastern church. There would be new mechanics, events, and decisions based around raising and lowering ecumenism, and traits would also play a role. For those who prefer war to diplomacy or just can't be bothered with the system, conquering the holy sites of rival faiths and vassalising their religious head would allow you to forcibly mend a schism in a manner similar to LoR's "Mend the Schism" decision. Mending the Great Schism would, for example, place the Pope under your control as Orthodox Patriarch of the West, while mending the schism with, say, the Egyptian Coptic church would convert Coptic provinces to Orthodox and de-establish the Coptic Papacy, with the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria taking it place.
This^ I always felt a dynamic let’s say Schism bar for both rites would work Far better then just 1 Chalcedonian megafaith with wierd railroading and offer a more fluid system in managing relations between the faiths.

Hate each other so much they Holy War against each other or respect each other so much they join in the defense of the other against Holy Wars by heretics and infidels.
 
Apr 8, 2020
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Having previously been of the opinion that Catholicism and Orthodoxy should be united pre-1054, I now believe the schism and schisms in general would be better represented by an ecumenism value that is shared between different faiths within the same branch. For example, the Byzantine Empire going iconoclast would reduce the ecumenical relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy by a certain percent. At low ecumenism, both faiths would see each other as heretical. At high ecumenism, they would recognise each other as equals in their respective spheres. The Ecumenical Patriarch would recognise the Pope as Patriarch of the West, and the Pope would recognise the Ecumenical Patriarch as head of the Eastern church. There would be new mechanics, events, and decisions based around raising and lowering ecumenism, and traits would also play a role.
For those who prefer war to diplomacy or just can't be bothered with the system, conquering the holy sites of rival faiths and vassalising their religious head would allow you to forcibly mend a schism in a manner similar to LoR's "Mend the Schism" decision. Mending the Great Schism would, for example, place the Pope under your control as Orthodox Patriarch of the West, while mending the schism with, say, the Egyptian Coptic church would convert Coptic provinces to Orthodox and de-establish the Coptic Papacy, with the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria taking it place.

Ecumenism + National Churches would represent Christianity quite nicely.

Let's see. if we go by the 867 start date, then churches that exist would include:
  1. The Catholic Church of Rome (The Papacy)
  2. The Orthodox Church of Constantinople (The Ecumenical Patriarchate)
  3. The Coptic Church (Papacy of Alexandria)
  4. The Coptic Church of Ethiopia (The Tewahedo Church)
  5. The Syrian Church (The Jacobites)
  6. The Assyrian Church (The Nestorians)
  7. The Apostolic Patriarchate (The Armenian Church)
  8. The Orthodox Church of the Rus (?)
Anyway, besides being a tenet, communion should be an actual mechanic (let's just call it communion) between all these national churches: as a matter of fact, with the addition of the later-formed Malankara Church, Churches 3-5 and 7 are in full communion as "sister-churches" when dealing with - especially when dealing with - Constantinople.

Just tossing out ideas next. Maybe we will see them implemented with Ecumenical Councils.

So besides going to war to nullify the various schisms, another option - following in the footsteps of Justinian and Heraclius - is calling for a ecumenical council. This feature is already stated to be planned for future updates, but for just Catholicism or both Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch I do not know. I am not naïve to assume that the other churches are taken into account.

There would essentially be one task at such councils: to resolve differences and raise ecumenism. I dunno how is a ruler supposed to participate (Justinian did personally dictate church rites, but I doubt players are interested in following this part of the man's legacy), but with the drastic reduction in bishop numbers it should be possible to influence the outcome with one particularly outstanding bishop. Outstanding not used merely positively - a cynical but well-learned bishop can easily create trouble by generating another schism and lowering ecumenism.

The following situations should raise ecumenism:
  • One ruler controls the majority of high-development regions of Christendom
  • Having diplomatic and pious characters as religious heads
  • High number of intact temples in Christian regions
  • High number of Christian provinces having a Christian as top liege
  • Churches of different faiths go into Full Communion
The following situations should lower ecumenism:
  • High-development regions of Christendom are divided between at least two rulers
  • Having undiplomatic, impious, clearly unsuitable (looking at you Lekapenos) and bellicose (zealous, wroth) characters as religious heads
  • High number of raided/desecrated/destroyed temples in Christian regions
  • High number of Christian provinces NOT having a Christian as top liege
  • Churches of different faiths break Full Communion
At high ecumenism:
  • Relations between characters belonging to different churches are improved
  • However, zealous characters have a lower opinion of their religious head, and un-zealous characters of the same faith in general
  • (To be updated when Frevor mechanic is explained)
  • Faster conversion of pagans, but slower conversion of other Christian denominations
  • Lower Papal Authority
  • Churches are more willing to go into Full Communion
At low ecumenism:
  • Relations between characters belonging to different churches are worsened
  • However, zealous characters have a higher opinion of their religious head, and un-zealous of the same faith characters in general
  • (To be updated when Frevor mechanic is explained)
  • Faster conversion of other Christian denominations, but no more ecumenism conversion buffs for pagans
  • Higher Papal Authority
  • Churches are less willing to go into Full Communion
Full Communion is a mechanic that should be available only to faiths with the Communion tenet, which completely removes religious opinion penalties. However, it should also become extremely difficult to change anything about your faith from this point on. Doctrinal stagnation for better relations with your co-religionists, or doctrinal evolution, gradually drifting away from them ... it should be a bargain that needs to be considered carefully.
(Three tiers of Communion: No Communion, Communion, Full Communion)

Side note: rulers should not be able to actually implement Full Communion, but you can "Initiate Talks" and "Encourage Full Communion". Ultimately, Full Communion should be something done be the clergy.

And speaking of churches, a fine distinction should be made between a different faith and a different church. Regardless of hard-coded restrictions, an ideal system for Miaphysites would be a per-kingdom National Church that exists independently of the kingdom, in Full Communion with churches of the same faith, with members of the kingdoms having different heads of church, who are invested with the powers of excommunication, divorce etc, instead of an ahistorical head of faith. Yes, that makes playing as a king fun in other ways instead of blobbing, as you laugh and stomp on nobles with support of the clergy ... until that second son becomes head of your church and excommunicates you.

Of course, given enough time, a national church can be a different faith altogether, but there should be a chain of events leading to it.

Now Papal Authority is another monster entirely. A Romanophile probably does not mind burning the Pope's residence to the ground to restore the empire, but thankfully the Pope is also powerful enough to resist these incursions ... if they are acknowledged as such.

Following up on the idea of National Churches, the same should exist for Catholicism, but with an overriding mechanic - yes, that means Papal Authority!

Papal Authority determines the opinion effect of Papal actions - if a Pope with high authority excommunicates you, you should be afraid of the enormous opinion malus. Conversely, being crowned by a Pope with high authority should make your vassals love you. In essence, Papal authority is a mechanic that encourages increased player interaction with the Pope. But it shouldn't be just that.

Low Papal Authority means secular rulers get to strong-arm their churchmen around more, have more control over the situation at home, and their church can split from Rome more easily. It also means your clergy might decide to go into communion with the Orthodox church, though, so beware if you don't want to change your church.

High Papal Authority has disastrous effects on you running the realm the way you want. You shouldn't be able to switch to free investiture, for instance. It also means a larger chunk of your church taxes go to the Pope.

At extremely high levels of Papal Authority (or when they are fed up with Constantinople), the Pope will "Claim the Donation of Constantine" and start crowning powerful rulers as Emperor of the Romans. Constantinople should, in this sense, make keeping Papal Authority low a priority.

That's all I can think of for now.