The Sad State of Heresies

[Zhetone]

Once upon a time, I undertook a Saxon campaign in 1066 and it was glorious.
At some point in the journey, I converted to the Lollard heresy just for kicks.
I was disappointed to discover that while I could declare holy wars and had moral authority, there was no head of my religion!

I realize that very few people will ever play as a heretic ruler because of the imminent crusades to destroy the heresy, but it would be wonderful if, for example, the first ruler to embrace a heresy became the controller of that heresy or something to that effect, akin to the Anglican Church, though different to fit the time period. It's silly to have a religion embraced by your whole nation and then have nothing to show for it. I had a Lollard Britannia with every province Lollard, and yet, I had nothing to show for this! No religious head, no way to use my moral authority, and then I was forced to return to Catholicism when the Pope decided to crusade for England. Either the Pope should remain my religious head or I should get a new one; none of this "no religious head" nonsense.

It would obviously have to be tailored for the different heresies, which would probably be pointless since, as I said, few would embrace heresies, but is there at least a mod which develops these sorts of things, or is it left to the dust? It seems so appealing to me to break off from Catholicism early on and start the reformation several centuries ahead of time.

(Also, why does the Lollard heresy appear long before Wycliffe was even living? That's silly!)

 

[Nuril]

Certain heresies were explicitly against the idea of a structured Church, though. If they barely even believe in Priests as legitimate (Anti-Sacerdotalism), why would they raise a King to be a new Pope?

Heresies and the Papacy are certainly good things to return to in the Catholic world after the Pagan+Republic DLCs are out, of course. Just not convinced they should have such a mechanic.

(Also, why does the Lollard heresy appear long before Wycliffe was even living? That's silly!)

Presumably it'd represent ideas and objections being raised similar to those we'd identify as "Lollard", irrespective of the date they became relevant in real life.

 

[Zhetone]

As I said, of course it would be different for individual heresies. However, wouldn't that be the fun part of it? You could essentially choose to embrace whichever heresy served your interests best. This didn't happen in history, and the AI should not only never do this but should thrash out at heretic leaders hard; however, I just think that if monarchs are allowed to become heretics, there should be some purpose to it. As it stands, you become a heretic and are left alone with no religious friends, and a lot of marriage options disappear because you're a heretic. It's not offset by any benefits.

 

[knppel]

While some heretic branches of course are against a structured church and so on, gamewise it would simply make sense to declare the (independent) ruler's court chaplain the religious head (given he has the same faith), as it works with the Semi-autonomous orthodox patriarchs

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think that even if the devs wanted to introduce more interesting heresies, the chances that most players or AI would even become a heretic is pretty low, so having unique gameplay features for every single heresy would have been a waste of time and effort. That said, I think this is why heresies would make interesting DLC material, and they would certainly fit in a Theocracy/Catholic/Papacy/etc. focused DLC.

 

[grisamentum]

Sad state is definitely right. All heresies are the same, and INEVITABLY, ever heresy either completely displaces its parent religion, or is utterly crushed.

I remember a Bogolimist Rus that randomly happened one game. They wiped out of the Byzantine Empire.

It's just yet another problem with the silliness of this game and its CBs.

 

[Vasious]

I wouldnt Imagine the Heresays being particularlly benefical for the ruler to convert to.... Disclaimer I am talking in Game terms and I am not a Theolgeon
Of course flavour events would be a great deal of fun

Cathars are Pacifists, reject oaths & vows (marrigae, Fealty) procreation is frowned upon and the life style of the Perfecti wouldnt be healthy.
'Good' Carthar Lords wouldnt get married, have legal children, decleare war or demand fealty nor make oaths there of.
The Bishoprics would still have bishops but collect not tax.

I would guess that a Kingdom that converted would become a lose federation of OPM co-religionists who... wouldnt inter marry nor justly defend each other

I wouldnt picture a Head of Religion, the the flavour events would be there - becoming a Perfecti
No Clerics over Baron Level

The Fraticelli would be a less drastic change - no church wealth/vow poverty , monastic encouragement, asetheticism and and hermits
Probably a Head of Religion

Lollards wouldnt get a head of Religion - Bisphoprics would be managed by Non priests I guess like republics but pay no tax - - The Court position of priest could marry but not lead armies
No Clerics over Baron Level

Waldensian once again would cause problems with that Oaths to anyone but God are forbidden so there goes Feudal oaths of Fealty, Cathars that can marry and have children and probably war
No Clerics over Baron Level

Bogomilists no Church heirarchy or head of religion or taxes - elected no invested priests for the Bishoprics - No Clerics over Baron Level - Marriage isnt a sacrament so maybe their own way to divorce

The rest of the Christian Hereasys seem to be Doctrinal as opposed to Heirarchical and should be mirrors maybe?

I wouldnt know where to begin with the Islamic Variants

 

[monsterfurby]

Basically, I don't think it would be realistic for PDS to implement mechanics for all heresies in the game. However, it would be cool if modders were given the ability to decide whether a heresy gets certain characteristics (head of religion etc.)

 

[hjarg]

As I said, of course it would be different for individual heresies. However, wouldn't that be the fun part of it? You could essentially choose to embrace whichever heresy served your interests best. This didn't happen in history, and the AI should not only never do this but should thrash out at heretic leaders hard; however, I just think that if monarchs are allowed to become heretics, there should be some purpose to it. As it stands, you become a heretic and are left alone with no religious friends, and a lot of marriage options disappear because you're a heretic. It's not offset by any benefits.

As for benefits- Holy War casus belli for EVERY catholic ruler! That is the best thing ever about the heretics! There is no need to marry, just go ahead and conquer!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I should point out that both Nestorians and Monophysites are classed as heresies in CK II but get their own heads of religion.

 

[Comradebot]

I should point out that both Nestorians and Monophysites are classed as heresies in CK II but get their own heads of religion.

Yup, they done good with the Orthodox heresies (and the Miaphysite heresy, as they only have the one). Love that the Nestorian Religious Head is the (think this is correct) "Pope of the East".

And Bogomilists not having religious heads? Right in line with their belief system, as a religious head would be a contradiction of Bogomilism.

Now they just need to give the Muslims and Catholics a little heretical love. With high enough MA, Muslim heretics should be able to proclaim a Caliph and start Jihading, some of the Catholic heretics need their own religious head... but not Cathars: Cathars need to strive to release as many vassals as possible until everyone is independent (or promptly work for their own indpendence), get divorced, and try to stop reproducing.

So, you know, good luck playing an accurately portrayed Cathar.

 

[SlackBladder]

I should point out that both Nestorians and Monophysites are classed as heresies in CK II but get their own heads of religion.

Having not played an orthodox heretic, does this mean they get their own head patriarch for the whole religion or does it work like autocephalous patriarchs?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Having not played an orthodox heretic, does this mean they get their own head patriarch for the whole religion or does it work like autocephalous patriarchs?

These are all heresies:

d_monophysite = {
	color={ 200 115 167 }
	color2={ 220 220 0 }
	
	capital = 802 # Alexandria
	
	title = "MONOPHYSITE_POPE"
	foa = "POPE_FOA"
	
	short_name = yes

	# Always exists
	landless = yes
	
	# Controls a religion
	controls_religion = monophysite
	
	religion = monophysite
	
	# Cannot be held as a secondary title
	primary = yes
	
	dynasty_title_names = no 	# Will not be named "Seljuk", etc.
	
	# Regnal names
	male_names = {
		Abraham Alexandros Alexios Agatho Anastasius Andronicus Athanasios Benjamin Christodolos Cosmas Cyril Damian 
		Demetrius Dioscorus Gabriel Ioannes Iosephos Isaakios Iakobos Makarios Markianos Matheos Michail Mina 
		Petros Philotheos Shenouda Simeon Theodoros Theophilus Timotheos Zacharias
	}
}

d_nestorian = {
	color={ 180 137 97 }
	color2={ 220 220 0 }
	
	capital = 764 # Antioch
	
	title = "PATRIARCH_IN_THE_EAST"
	foa = "ECUMENICAL_PATRIARCH_FOA"
	
	short_name = yes

	# Always exists
	landless = yes
	
	# Controls a religion
	controls_religion = nestorian
	
	religion = nestorian
	
	# Cannot be held as a secondary title
	primary = yes
	
	dynasty_title_names = no 	# Will not be named "Seljuk", etc.
	
	# Regnal names
	male_names = {
		Aba Abraham Eliya Denha Emmanuel Giwargis Hnanisho Ishoyahb Makkikha 
		Maremmeh Pethion Sabrisho Shemon Sargis Surin Theodosios Timotheos Yahballaha Yohannan
	}
}

d_monothelite = {
	color={ 180 170 65 }
	color2={ 220 220 0 }
	
	capital = 764 # Antioch
	
	title = "MONOTHELITE_PATRIARCH"
	foa = "ECUMENICAL_PATRIARCH_FOA"
	
	short_name = yes

	# Always exists
	landless = yes
	
	# Controls a religion
	controls_religion = monothelite
	
	religion = monothelite
	
	# Cannot be held as a secondary title
	primary = yes
	
	dynasty_title_names = no 	# Will not be named "Seljuk", etc.
	
	# Regnal names
	male_names = {
		Alexios Antonios Athanasios Basileios Chariton Dionysios Dositheos Eustathios Eustratios Euthymios
		Gennadios Georgios Gerasimos Germanos Gregoras Ioannes Iosephos Isidoros Kallistos Konstantinos
		Kosmas Leon Leontios Loukas Makarios Manuel Maximos Metrophanes Michael Neophytos Nephon Niketas
		Nikolaos Nilos Matthaios Paulos Sergios Sisinnios Symeon Theodoros Theodosios Theodotos
	}
}

 

[Talq]

Most of the heresies had strong views about the corruption and worldiness of the organised church as well as disagreeing with the theology, so it is more or less a given they won't acknowledge a religious head. (They also (by definition) never got to such a position of authority as to need a religious hierarchy.)

You also seem to implicitly suggest that all christian churches require the pope or a head of state as head. There are a few modern protestant churches that would disagree with this.

*shrug* heresies undoubtably could be expanded. So could a lot of other things. And as others have said, the ability to holy war everybody is a very, very large bonus (to go with the large penalty of everybody holy warring you back)

 

[Viden]

Most of the heresies had strong views about the corruption and worldiness of the organised church as well as disagreeing with the theology, so it is more or less a given they won't acknowledge a religious head. (They also (by definition) never got to such a position of authority as to need a religious hierarchy.)

And most of the heresies who survived have now structured Churches.

You also seem to implicitly suggest that all christian churches require the pope or a head of state as head. There are a few modern protestant churches that would disagree with this.

But not all.

 

[Lannock]

As for benefits- Holy War casus belli for EVERY catholic ruler! That is the best thing ever about the heretics! There is no need to marry, just go ahead and conquer!

That's only a benefit if you're already big enough to not have to worry about every other ruler on the map having the ability to Holy War you aswell.

 

[Patricius]

I played as a Cathar once. I found that Patriarch and anti-Popes can be rebels as well, and dangerous as I though they would never rebel (rebel by forming a faction). Catharism was informal. The only officers were the perfecti. No bishops or Popes as far as I know.

 

[nijis]

I would suggest that heresies go through two stages:

1) An initial dynamic stage, where it spreads like wildfire but also leaves a trail of social unrest in its wake (the German Peasants' War, for example, or the battles of the Dulcinians) as members take their campaign against all things worldly, like property or the clergy.

2) An "establishment" phase that kicks in after a generation if the heresy controls territory, wherein the doctrines of the new faith make their compromise with pragmatic politics and economics. At that point, the ruler of the central territory can determine whether there will be a structured head of church or it will remain a de-centralized religion.

 

[Zhetone]

I would suggest that heresies go through two stages:

1) An initial dynamic stage, where it spreads like wildfire but also leaves a trail of social unrest in its wake (the German Peasants' War, for example, or the battles of the Dulcinians) as members take their campaign against all things worldly, like property or the clergy.

2) An "establishment" phase that kicks in after a generation if the heresy controls territory, wherein the doctrines of the new faith make their compromise with pragmatic politics and economics. At that point, the ruler of the central territory can determine whether there will be a structured head of church or it will remain a de-centralized religion.

If that could be implemented or modded, that would be pretty amazing. Of course, only certain heresies would really fit in with an established church.
I think the heresy system would work far better if historical heresies weren't used, since the situations involving religion can differ so wildly from reality, such as how the Lollard heresy shows up before the birth of Wycliffe, who would never show up in-game anyways. That would require an overhaul, and I'm sure it wouldn't be worth it, but it would be rather neat.

 

[theKing1988]

I should point out that both Nestorians and Monophysites are classed as heresies in CK II but get their own heads of religion.

The same goes for the Monothelites if i'm not mistaken.