The sad state of Eastern Religions and Protestantism

[ahyangyi]

A westernised Ming, currently, will have no problem converting, as long as they have one of the two religious idea groups. Converting same culture provinces with max pious is quite easy, even for china.
And the benefits of being Muslim is more than worth it.

I wish you at least need to waste some 1000 mil MP or bash a few religious revolts before getting that job done...

On the other hand, a broken China should be more interesting religiously. China had a few Muslim warlords during early 20th century actually...

 

[wingzero890]

Since the Tolerance idea hit the deck, tolerance of heretics and heathens is perfectly valid strategy.

If anything I would just nerf Muslims, they seem to be way out of whack. Orthodoxy is good, but is not particularly powerful, Catholic curia is not easy to control, Reformed is nice, but who cares about money in 1500 anyway, only valuable thing there is the army boost, and even then, after 1600, even that, is needless.

IMO, nerf muslims, buff confucians and hindu a bit, and everything is good enough.

I would agree that the muslim group has some of the best bonuses in the game. Shia especially, but Shia nations are rare.

+3% Missionary strength +10% Morale and +20 fort defense (blowing the Coptic bonus out of the water)
or
+20% tax, +20% manpower, -10% tech cost.

Muslim bonuses are pretty massive. And they don't have to deal with decadence like CK2, lol.

 

[Kalderus]

The bonuses that Catholicism provides are historically warranted; buffs to Protestantism are not.

Considering that signature, this is clearly in no way a biased opinion...

 

[1alexey]

I would agree that the muslim group has some of the best bonuses in the game. Shia especially, but Shia nations are rare.

+3% Missionary strength +10% Morale and +20 fort defense (blowing the Coptic bonus out of the water)
or
+20% tax, +20% manpower, -10% tech cost.

Muslim bonuses are pretty massive. And they don't have to deal with decadence like CK2, lol.

Indeed. Any non-muslim religion is weak if you have an option to convert to muslim.

Sunni westernized Russia, anyone?

 

[uishax]

I would agree that the muslim group has some of the best bonuses in the game. Shia especially, but Shia nations are rare.

+3% Missionary strength +10% Morale and +20 fort defense (blowing the Coptic bonus out of the water)
or
+20% tax, +20% manpower, -10% tech cost.

Muslim bonuses are pretty massive. And they don't have to deal with decadence like CK2, lol.

I never understood, why doesn't the Muslim slider have negative effects like the Orthodox one? A half sized penalty in the opposite direction would be appropriate.

 

[itsuart]

Japan should have Buddhism as state religion, not Shinto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan

 

[ahyangyi]

Japan should have Buddhism as state religion, not Shinto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan

I agree. Probably not the "normal" Buddhism but the Zen heresy?
Then Shinto could use some treatment similar to Sikh... The ruler should be able to switch between Zen and Shinto generally freely.

 

[itsuart]

I agree. Probably not the "normal" Buddhism but the Zen heresy?
Then Shinto could use some treatment similar to Sikh... The ruler should be able to switch between Zen and Shinto generally freely.

Agree. They also should coexist peacefully.

 

[Hexmage]

The strange part about Japanese "religion" is that it is considered normal in Japan to be part of multiple "religions" (putting religion in quotes since it's debatable if Buddhism and Shinto are actually religions). They are more likely to mix and match the best parts of Shinto, Buddhism and to a lesser extent Christianity.

 

[wingzero890]

Agree. They also should coexist peacefully.

Buddhism and Confucianism sorta has that with +1 tolerance of heathens and heretics but they need to be stronger tolerance bonuses, as well as grant some other benefits and each need their own mechanics.

 

[Tzumao]

I wish you at least need to waste some 1000 mil MP or bash a few religious revolts before getting that job done...

On the other hand, a broken China should be more interesting religiously. China had a few Muslim warlords during early 20th century actually...

None of those areas were part of Ming China, they were later conquered by the Qing.

On topic, Confucianism and Daoism aren't really religions in the Western sense to begin with, more like hybrids between religion and philosophy. The religion mechanics make very little sense for East Asia in general. Buddhists being "Heretics" to Confucianists is completely ridiculous, since there was no overlap at all. You could freely follow all the big 3 (Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism) at the same time, to varying degrees. I guess there isn't too much you can do with the system being set up as it is. Maybe add a generic "Chinese" religion with something like a piety meter between Confucianism and Daoism instead, since both schools had quite the rivalry when it came to philosophical matters regarding government and society, although that would only work for China and still exclude Chinese Buddhism altogether.

 

[balmung60]

But the current differential between Eastern and non-eastern religions are gigantic, every horde wants to be muslim if possible because when they reform they get better tech.

Actually, it depends. If you're aiming for westernizing early, you may want to be in the Eastern religion group for the better cavalry (more pips overall and better shock) and infantry (fire focused instead of morale focused). If you aren't looking to do that, having absolutely any religion other than Buddhist, Confucian, or Shinto will get you Muslim tech and units. Might be nice if going Dharmic gave you Indian tech and units.

The bigger reason to not go/stay Eastern, though, is that Eastern religions blow, while Dharmic, Christian (except Coptic), and Muslim religions are pretty awesome.

 

[Poro]

The direct bonuses granted by a religion are nice but large portion of the fun/benefits come from available decisions, events and mechanics.

This is what makes Catholic and to lesser degree Protestant religions so strong. They have tons of possible bonuses available from added flavor and these benefits/malus create another strategic aspect to consider if you like to optimize your nation. Muslim religions are also good with decent amount of flavor. Hinduism was much improved when Paradox added all those ruler modifiers/events.

Sadly Eastern religions have none of that, practically no events or decisions and no interesting mechanics tied to religion. It doesn't help that the basic bonuses are nothing special either. I like playing in SE-Asia or East-Asia but it's hard to justify staying Buddhist when other religions offer so much more.

 

[Morricane]

[...]Abrahamic religions don't have a very significant presence in the 'far east' today.

Tell that Koreans.

 

[sirdar]

I don't think Buddhism is bad after all... It's situational:
For example Buddhism- Tibetan ideas - humanism give you a solid +3 of tolerance towards heretics and heathens and You do not need to convert anyone anymore.

 

[artemis667]

The whole problem is because the missionary system is 100% out of balance. The very strange formula creates this situation where converting provinces is either entirely impossible, or so easy you can do it in a handful of months. There is no in between. I understand most mechanics in this game and the reason for them, but I don't know what the designer(s) of this mechanic were thinking.

I've actually tweaked it myself so that missionaries go quite a lot slower, but you should be able to convert every province in the game, without necessarily taking *every* idea and decision. It isn't easy, though, and far from ideal, a messy and complicated workaround that makes the game better but has it's own limitations. The formula needs to be changed in the engine to something straightforward - where the conversion length is multiplied by base tax, the speed is modified by ideas/decisions and factors in the province, and the missionaries have a higher maintenance cost. There are other ways to improve it too.

If they design it properly, mass conversion of Ming would be impossible - or close to impossible. The way it should be.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

I don't think Buddhism is bad after all... It's situational:
For example Buddhism- Tibetan ideas - humanism give you a solid +3 of tolerance towards heretics and heathens and You do not need to convert anyone anymore.

- heathen and heretic tolerance capped at +3, here are always need to convert because +5 is better than +3.

 

[Incompetent]

- heathen and heretic tolerance capped at +3, here are always need to convert because +5 is better than +3.

You don't really need more than +3 though, especially if you have generic '-X unrest' bonuses from other things. You'll still want to convert provinces, but you don't really suffer for it if there are some provinces you can't convert.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

You don't really need more than +3 though, especially if you have generic '-X unrest' bonuses from other things. You'll still want to convert provinces, but you don't really suffer for it if there are some provinces you can't convert.

- oh i am suffering if i can have +5 instead of +3.

As for the OP, i think that some religion bonuses simply does not make any sense and pushing more towards fantasy genre than to historical one.
Examples:
Shinto +10% land morale - because local animist believes make you fearless.
Coptic +10% fort defense - because apparently copts worship walls.
Ibadi +10% navy morale - because ibadis worship water spirits.
Sikh -5% mil tech cost - because when you preaching about equality this improves your weapons and tactics.

 

[HerrStarr]

Probably the next dlc.