The sad state of Eastern Religions and Protestantism

[wingzero890]

The sad state of Eastern Religions

I hope Paradox takes the time to rework some of the underpowered religions in their next update. As it stands, I feel these are the weakest religions in the game right now (barring the pagan group which is meant to be converted).

In case anyone has forgotten, here are the bonuses of these I and others feel are underpowered or boring.

• Protestantism: Seems we are all in agreement that Protestantism is fine, just boring.
• Buddhism & Confucianism: Tolerance of heretics: +2,Tolerance of heathens: +1.
  Yes, Buddhism and Confucianism are completely identical ingame, and their bonuses are awful.
• Shinto:Tolerance of heathens -1, Local missionary strength -2%, Land morale +10%.
  An awful, watered down version of Shia.
• *added* Coptic: Tolerance of the True Faith: +2, Fort defense: +10%, Local missionary strength: -2%.
  Fort. Defense. Ethiopia gets interesting events now though but I don't think this is related to their religion.

Ideas:

• Buddhism could have some kind of cyclical mechanic based on the concept of Samsara (reincarnation/rebirth).
• Likewise, Confucianism could have some sort of reverse piety meter that awards balance.
• I'm not sure what to do with Shinto, because in Japan Shinto and Buddhism coexisted by the 1400s. Perhaps, like the Indian religions (Hindu and Sikh), Paradox could allow you to swap between Eastern religious sects?
• Copts just need *something*. It was honestly better for Abyssinia when the region was Orthodox.
• As for Protestantism, the centers of reformation were a good addition, but I'm not sure what else could be done to make them interesting. No stab hit for breaking marriages sounded funny though.

Anyone else have any ideas?


Reformed and Hindu got mechanics since the time of the below post which is from last year, but I felt it had great ideas and warranted some extra attention.

I think it's unfortunate that only Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims get their own mechanics, so I created this thread so everyone could brainstorm and comment on possible mechanics for the other religions.

I think Protestant and Reformed can share the same mechanic. I like the idea of a mechanic that highlights how Protestant and Reformed aren't strict homogeneous faiths but represent several similar branches of religion. I've come up with the idea of a slider representing your opinion of other branches of Protestantism than your own. Lowering your friendliness could increase missionary chance and increase your tolerance of true faith but increase heretic revolts and lower other Protestant/Reformed nation's opinions of you (since they follow their own version of Protestantism).

For Hinduism my best idea comes from how different branches focus on different gods, with some for example only worshiping Vishnu or Shiva. My idea is to have a system where you can prioritize different gods over others with each one giving different bonuses. You might also add something concerning the birth of Sikhism, similar to the Protestant Reformation.

For Shintoism I'd suggest a "syncretism" mechanic that represents how tolerant you are of the Buddhist influences from China. And If you max out your syncretism Buddhism will count as Own rather than Heretic (you might also add something similar to Protestant/Reformed with the mechanic posted above, although that might be going too far). I'd suggest the same thing for Confucianism (which probably should be renamed to Taoism), but in that case the syncretism bar would probably have to be maxed out at all times with no way of turning it down. On the whole I think all the Eastern religions could benefit from the game acknowledging how having the wrong religion wasn't quite as big of a deal as it was to Christians and Muslims.

The Animist and Shamanist religions are way too broad, but adding all the faiths they represent as separate religions would be far too complicated. I think the most effective solution is to replace them with a Pagan religion and tie their religious tolerance to culture, so that every Pagan with the same culture as you counts as Own, every Pagan in the same culture group as you counts as Heretic, and every pagan from a different culture group counts as Heathen.

You could also add new mechanics to the Converter-only religions (reformed Pagans, American religions, Zoroastrianism and, technically, Hellenism), but I think it'd be too much effort for too little gain. I'd recommend just giving them the mechanics of other religions if giving them anything at all.

 

[1337Hospitaller]

I hope Paradox takes the time to rework these four religions in their next update. As it stands, I feel these are the weakest religions in the game right now (barring the pagan group which is meant to be converted). In case anyone has forgotten, here are the bonuses of these four religions.

Buddhism & Confucianism: Tolerance of heretics: +2,Tolerance of heathens: +1. Yes, Buddhism and Confucianism are completely identical ingame, and their bonuses are awful.

Shinto:Tolerance of heathens -1, Local missionary strength -2%, Land morale +10%. An awful, watered down version of Shia.

Protestantism: National tax modifier: +10%, Idea costs: -10. These aren't awful bonuses, but are they strong enough to stand against the whole slew of bonuses and mechanics of other religions like Reformed or the Catholics enjoy?

Buddhism could have some kind of cyclical mechanic based on the concept of Samsara, perhaps. Likewise, Confucianism could have some sort of reverse piety meter that awards balance. I'm not sure what to do with Shinto, because in Japan Shinto and Buddhism coexisted by the 1400s. Perhaps, like the Dharmic religions, Paradox could allow you to swap between religious sects?

As for Protestantism, the centers of reformation were a good addition, but I'm not sure what else could be done to bring them into line with the more powerful religions.

Anyone else have any ideas?

The bonuses that Catholicism provides are historically warranted; buffs to Protestantism are not.

 

[Santoes]

Protestantism should get no stab hit for breaking marriages.

 

[mgoetze]

Keep buying DLC and they'll keep making it.

 

[wingzero890]

Protestantism should get no stab hit for breaking marriages.

This is a great idea.

 

[ChildeR]

As it stands, I feel these are the weakest religions in the game right now (barring the pagan group which is meant to be converted).

I have no problem with that continuing to be the case. Religions don't need to be the same strength. However, unique mechanics for them would be appreciated.

 

[ahyangyi]

No need to buff Protestantism but it could really use some mechanism. I remember someone mentioned an idea: to reflect the diverse, decentralized nature, make you develop your own local version of Protestant.

 

[wingzero890]

I have no problem with that continuing to be the case. Religions don't need to be the same strength. However, unique mechanics for them would be appreciated.

Those bonuses they have may as well be nonexistent compared to the bonuses other religions get.

Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, Hindu, Sikh, Sunni Shia Ibadi all have redeeming factors. Hell, reformed pagan religions from CK2 imports are better. Eastern religions have no redeeming factor, at all.

 

[uishax]

I have no problem with that continuing to be the case. Religions don't need to be the same strength. However, unique mechanics for them would be appreciated.

The main issue with having religions that differ largely in strength, is it creates a perverse incentive to convert.
Pagans should convert to organised religions because they offer stability and legitimacy in governing, but China or Japan shouldn't be incentivised to convert to Sunni 'coz better bonuses'

Not to mention the most successful non-western countries have been East Asian economies, which without exception have strong confucian tints in their culture

 

[Incompetent]

Protestant is strong enough, it's just boring.

Buddhism and Confucianism are indeed terrible.

Coptic, Shinto and Sikh are not a total disaster, but they're all a bit underpowered and they all lack interesting mechanics. Then again, all three are quite obscure religions in-game (usually only one medium-sized power has this religion), so they're probably not a priority.

 

[wingzero890]

Sikh is redeemed by the events and the fact that you can switch back to Hinduism whenever you please at the cost of prestige.

Forgot about Coptic. Adding it to the OP. Guess everyone agrees that protestantism is fine though, just boring.

 

[ChildeR]

The main issue with having religions that differ largely in strength, is it creates a perverse incentive to convert.
Pagans should convert to organised religions because they offer stability and legitimacy in governing, but China or Japan shouldn't be incentivised to convert to Sunni 'coz better bonuses'

Meh, just nerf conversion if that's a problem. Even if you made religions exactly as strong, there would be an incentive to convert to the one whose bonuses stack best with your NIs and strategy.

 

[uishax]

Meh, just nerf conversion if that's a problem. Even if you made religions exactly as strong, there would be an incentive to convert to the one whose bonuses stack best with your NIs and strategy.

No, because there is a large cost in converting large nations, you are basically forced to take humanist or religious ideas if you want to convert as a large nation.

But the current differential between Eastern and non-eastern religions are gigantic, every horde wants to be muslim if possible because when they reform they get better tech.

 

[ahyangyi]

Meh, just nerf conversion if that's a problem. Even if you made religions exactly as strong, there would be an incentive to convert to the one whose bonuses stack best with your NIs and strategy.

And your size. I would imagine a unified Ming be horrified by the idea of converting to any non-Eastern religion.

 

[Marson]

Protestantism should get no stab hit for breaking marriages.

Agreed.

 

[wingzero890]

No, because there is a large cost in converting large nations, you are basically forced to take humanist or religious ideas if you want to convert as a large nation.

But the current differential between Eastern and non-eastern religions are gigantic, every horde wants to be muslim if possible because when they reform they get better tech.

Off topic, but apparently if Yeren stays Shamanist they get Muslim tech group, which they then take with them when they become Manchu and Qing.

 

[uishax]

And your size. I would imagine a unified Ming be horrified by the idea of converting to any non-Eastern religion.

A westernised Ming, currently, will have no problem converting, as long as they have one of the two religious idea groups. Converting same culture provinces with max pious is quite easy, even for china.
And the benefits of being Muslim is more than worth it.

 

[ChildeR]

No, because there is a large cost in converting large nations, you are basically forced to take humanist or religious ideas if you want to convert as a large nation.

My point exactly. If conversion is still ("too") worth it, just increase that cost.

 

[wingzero890]

There should be very little incentive for Chinese nations or Japan to convert (but there isn't).

Eastern religions should be worthwhile enough that converting shouldn't be worth the trouble.

Besides, missionaries were dealt with harshly by the Qing and the Tokugawa, and Abrahamic religions don't have a very significant presence in the 'far east' today.

 

[1alexey]

Since the Tolerance idea hit the deck, tolerance of heretics and heathens is perfectly valid strategy.

If anything I would just nerf Muslims, they seem to be way out of whack. Orthodoxy is good, but is not particularly powerful, Catholic curia is not easy to control, Reformed is nice, but who cares about money in 1500 anyway, only valuable thing there is the army boost, and even then, after 1600, even that, is needless.

IMO, nerf muslims, buff confucians and hindu a bit, and everything is good enough.