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Calgacus

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There is no King of the Rus in Crusader Kings. If that inacuracy weren't enough, some principalities have King status, but not the ones which should have, i.e Kiev then Vladimir. Are there any plans to address this gaping void of accuracy, or am I the only one who bothers about the Rus?

Here is a list of the Kings of Rus in the period:

http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/rulers/rusruler.htm

It has been suggested that being accurate here would cause the Rus to be too powerful. Well, all I can say is "pah." It'd be more reasonable to address the overpoweredness than to leave a fictional vacuum in the area.

Gavelkind aside, perhaps the other Rurikovikii could have claims on the title, and have byzantine style crippling events? Certainly be better than the status quo. :)
 

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There is a king of Rus title in CK that can be created if you own enough of the russian provinces. I don't really understand what you want, do you mean there should be a king of Rus from the start of the game? That would not be very accurate because Russia didn't exist in the CK period and was only formed later.
 

Calgacus

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Barbarossa II said:
I don't really understand what you want, do you mean there should be a king of Rus from the start of the game?

Yes.

Barbarossa II said:
That would not be very accurate because Russia didn't exist in the CK period and was only formed later.

Not true. A lot of people seem to think that, but it isn't true.
 

Barbarossa II

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Well, all the Russian principalities are duchies ( in the 1066 scenario at least, don't know about the others as I don't play them). And AFAIK Russia emerged from Muscowy in the 16th century. There was the Kievan Rus, but isn't this just the principality of Kiev in CK?? I don't know if they should be a kingdom. Were they seen as such?
 

Calgacus

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Barbarossa II said:
Well, all the Russian principalities are duchies ( in the 1066 scenario at least, don't know about the others as I don't play them). And AFAIK Russia emerged from Muscowy in the 16th century. There was the Kievan Rus, but isn't this just the principality of Kiev in CK?? I don't know if they should be a kingdom. Were they seen as such?

The title was veliky knyaz, meaning roughly translated, "high king." It was based in Novgorod at first, then moved to Kiev, then ultimately to Vladimir. He was accompanied by an Archbishopric, the Metropolitan of the Rus, who was initially based in Kiev, but followed the veliky knyaz to Vladimir. The status conferred on its holder supreme position of all the rulers of the Eastern Slavs, and the responsibility to defend the eastern Slavs against invasion, or to lead lartge-scale expeditions.

Under the Mongols, the veliky knyaz became the chief Mongol tax collector in Russia. The Mongols at Sarai relied on the veliky knyaz to collect taxes from the rest of the Rus (including Novgorod BTW), and the Rurikid princes (mainly those of Moscow and Tver) gladly and slavishly competed for the honor. Moscow won out, and used the Khanate's power to centralize Russia, whilst defrauding the Khan at the same time in the taxes. We all know the story after that...

In the Muscovite period, the rulers adopt the title of Emperor, and the Metropolitan Patriarch.
 

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In my opinion, the principalities of the Kievan Rus were much too fragmented in 1066 to warrant the existence of a King of the Rus at gamestart. The principalities were mostly a loose confederacy, except when a strong ruler managed to united them, such as Yaroslav (d. 1054) and Vladimir Monomakh (d. 1125). Yet even a few years after their deaths, civil war ov er succession and influence undid most of their accomplishments.

Since creating the title King of Rus requires domination of a large number of the independent principalities, much like a potential ruler would have had to do in reality, I think it's much more useful and historically accurate to keep it as not-existant but creatable, as it is now.
 

Calgacus

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I don't see the argument frankly, there are plenty of non-fictional ways of simulating decentralization. Some rulers have good stats, some not. Some have large demesne, some not. Etc, etc. Dearie me, every kingdom had civil wars. You might as well get rid of England and France. And no matter what anyone's vague opinion about "much too fragmented", Rus is there. It existed. It didn't vanish even under a weak ruler, or a disputed succession. Creatable is nonsense. You're implying parity with the Kingdom of North Africa. Rus existed!

It existed!

That's where everything else should follow from ...
 

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There were some threads before this....I would say and point out that 'King of Rus' was not an actual title but rather a titular title like that of "Emepror of HRE" having the title 'King of Romans'. Kiev and Muscovy had the status of kings in CK timeframe so those two should be kingdoms there.....only I don't know which kingdom would get which provnce...perhaps someone....
 

Calgacus

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Finellach said:
There were some threads before this....I would say and point out that 'King of Rus' was not an actual title but rather a titular title like that of "Emepror of HRE" having the title 'King of Romans'. Kiev and Muscovy had the status of kings in CK timeframe so those two should be kingdoms there.....only I don't know which kingdom would get which provnce...perhaps someone....

Finellach, I get why you'd think rex Romanorum is "a titular title," but why on earth would you compare that with veliky knyaz? Knyaz is cognate with German Koenig and English King ... head of a Kin group. It is a naturalistic term, whereas rex Romanorum is historical fantasy.

Just so everyone knows, Muscovy, did not exist (or was never mentioned) until the 12th century, and was but a border outpost of Vladimir.
 

Enravota

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btw veliki knyaz means "grand duke" not "high king". and also the normal knyazs( :p :rofl: ) had close to loyality to the veliki knyaz. the grand duke of Novgorod/Kiev/Vladimir was more "first amoung equals" rather than sovieregn of the other princes. it was more of a honourary title
 

Calgacus

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Enravota said:
btw veliki knyaz means "grand duke" not "high king".

I knew someone would say that. But that was a product of Latin translations, born out of the unwillingness of Latins after the 12th century to call anyone "King." (A tradition which was eventually exported into Imperial Russia). In medieval reality though, its best English translation would be "high king." ;)

Enravota said:
. the grand duke of Novgorod/Kiev/Vladimir was more "first amoung equals" rather than sovieregn of the other princes. it was more of a honourary title

There are many examples of primus inter pares liege-vassal kingdoms in CK, Germany and France being two examples. Autocratic monarchies like England, Sicily and Byzantium were very much the exception in the CK period.

Being the High King, or Grand Prince, of the Rus entailed lots of power, e.g. removing subordinate princes, distributing princedoms to children, interactions with foreign powers like the Roman Empire, relations with the Church, responsibility over any large scale military action ... i.e. the powers of any other early medieval European king. It was of course "honorary," but to imply that it was merely honorary is quite an absurd, fictional generalization.
 
Last edited:

Damocles

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Well.

Technically, historically speaking, Catalonia was a vassal of Aragon.

However, game mechanic wise, the most accurate depiction of it's behavior is as a independent.


I would have to suggest that the Rus fall into a similar category. Otherwise, we overbalance in the opposite direction and make them far too stable and centralized, due to some of CK's quirks in representing loyalty.
 

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Calgacus said:
Finellach, I get why you'd think rex Romanorum is "a titular title," but why on earth would you compare that with veliky knyaz? Knyaz is cognate with German Koenig and English King ... head of a Kin group. It is a naturalistic term, whereas rex Romanorum is historical fantasy.

I didn't compared it with "veliky kniaz" title but with 'King of Rus' title. I don't understand how you came to such conclusion!?! :confused:
Anyway 'King of Rus' is historical fantasy just as 'King of Romans'. There was never anything even remotely similar to something such as 'Kingdom of Rus'.

Just so everyone knows, Muscovy, did not exist (or was never mentioned) until the 12th century, and was but a border outpost of Vladimir.

Yes but Muscovy was upgraded from a small March and County into "Grand Duchy" in 14th century...."Grand Duke or Prince" is also translation from "Veliky Kniaz".

As for the meaning todays common acepptance of "Veliky Kniaz", "Knez" etc is a "Prince" or "Duke" but I would say that in Slavic people this title "Kniaz, Knez", etc had the tier status of a King.
 

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Finellach said:
I didn't compared it with "veliky kniaz" title but with 'King of Rus' title. I don't understand how you came to such conclusion!?! Anyway 'King of Rus' is historical fantasy just as 'King of Romans'. There was never anything even remotely similar to something such as 'Kingdom of Rus'.

They represent the same thing. veliky kniaz was accompanied with the overlordship of all Rus.



Finellach said:
Yes but Muscovy was upgraded from a small March and County into "Grand Duchy" in 14th century..

I don't think so. The prince of Moscow held the title "Grand Prince" of Vladimir ... not of Moscow.
 
Last edited:

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Calgacus said:
They represent the same thing. veliky kniaz was accompanied with the overlordship of all Rus.

Really? And the source is?

I don't think so. The prince of Moscow held the title "Grand Prince" of Vladimir ... not of Moscow.

He held both titles...thats why it is most of the time refered as "Grand Principality of Moscow or Vladimir".
 

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Calgacus said:
I knew someone would say that. But that was a product of Latin translations, born out of the unwillingness of Latins after the 12th century to call anyone "King." (A tradition which was eventually exported into Imperial Russia). In medieval reality though, its best English translation would be "high king." ;)

not really 'cause the Rus grand duke ( :p ) never recieved a king tier title from neither HRE, Byzantium or the Pope. so in this case grand duke is more apropriate. and btw the Eastern (Orthodox) Slav king (well emperor really) title is tzar (ceasar).


Calgacus said:
Being the High King, or Grand Prince, of the Rus entailed lots of power, e.g. removing subordinate princes, distributing princedoms to children, interactions with foreign powers like the Roman Empire, relations with the Church, responsibility over any large scale military action ... i.e. the powers of any other early medieval European king. It was of course "honorary," but to imply that it was merely honorary is quite an absurd, fictional generalization.
to have some rights is one thing, to enforce them is another. If the veliky knyaz hold some power over the other principalities not because he was veliky knyaz but because of its millitary might (often siezing the title from the previous knyaz). and more importantly the veliky knyaz hold not domain over the other knyazes land or right to rule.
Calgacus said:
They represent the same thing. veliky kniaz was accompanied with the overlordship of all Rus.
i guess that the kingdom of Rus in CK is supposed to represent the tzardom of Ivan Grozny and his Third Rome asspirations. as such that title is not connected to the veliky knyaz title
 

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Enravota said:
not really 'cause the Rus grand duke ( :p ) never recieved a king tier title from neither HRE, Byzantium or the Pope. so in this case grand duke is more apropriate.

LOL ... my point precisely. The German King offered Ivan III (or was it Vassili) a regal crown ... and of course, the High King told him to go f*** himself. :rofl:

It surely needn't be pointed out that Kingship predates the religio-feudal rituals of 12th century Latin Christiandom, and outlasts it. As I said before knyaz in veliky knyaz meant "King"; Byzantine sources translate it as such, the word is cognate with German Koenig and English King.

Enravota said:
to have some rights is one thing, to enforce them is another. If the veliky knyaz hold some power over the other principalities not because he was veliky knyaz but because of its millitary might (often siezing the title from the previous knyaz). and more importantly the veliky knyaz hold not domain over the other knyazes land or right to rule.

There are no codes covering the law of feudal rights in pre-Muscovite Russia. As for most European kingdoms, the power of the man at the top varied from region to region. I reiterate, Russia here is at one with most other European kingdoms. Although it occurs to many to justify the absence of Rus from the game ex post facto because Rus was not a autocratic administrative machine, it rarely occurs to the same people to use the argument in reference to Kingdoms already included ... and that is why I'm not going to take such arguments seriously.

Seriously, the implication is that the Rus rulers are some kind of equivalent to the later Merovingian Kings. Nothing of the sort. These rulers were warriors who frequently led all of Rus in war against the Steppe Turks, Romans and Mongols.

Enravota said:
and btw the Eastern (Orthodox) Slav king (well emperor really) title is tzar (ceasar).

Caesar! Yes, Tsar means emperor of Byzantium, or anyone pretending to be (like the rulers of the Bulgars)... not an ethnic King.


Enravota said:
i guess that the kingdom of Rus in CK is supposed to represent the tzardom of Ivan Grozny and his Third Rome asspirations. as such that title is not connected to the veliky knyaz title

I doubt it. The very fact the word Rus is there suggests otherwise. Besides, the CK period is too early for that. ANyways, there isn't much difference between Imperial Russia and Vladimirian Rus, except in ideology and autocracy. I'd suggest that the act of becoming Russia in EUII is perhaps one of the strongest reasons why posters and even developers are misled.
 
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I think you will find that both slavic and western non-slavic linguistic references to (Ruthenian, Polish, Great Russ) sources from the period refer to knaz, knyaz, kniez, knez and so forth as a contextual equivalent of "lord". A Knaz might rule a large area, or a single village. Veliky was oft used in much the same way as we might use the word "high" or in terms of the "dux" or "duc" and refer to either local or not-so-local premiership in terms of mutual defence where there might be the interest of more than one local thug and his hovel at risk. (Perhaps there was an Arthur at Camelot, and if so, he was high king, but certainly rule England he did not)

Very occassionally, briefly and incidentally might there be some greater importance attached to the person wearing such a moniker, but the practical or long lasting effects of such an association can best be examined from the paucity of historical record in the surrounding kingdoms and their interests. Had there been a considerable and consistent presence in the area the church, Poland, Lithuania, even Byzantium, the Mongols, Turkomans, and god knows who else, would have had very very different diplomatic and military patterns. Their records would reflect otherwise, and historical boundaries would not have acted as they did in the period in question, had there been a viable political/military presence for more than a decade or so at a time not totally dominated by internal struggle for cohesion.

Though not without their own subjective biases, papal and other documentation by church officials can paint a fairly vivid picture of where things lay and how they got there...(This is mostly because these folks were the only people-especially the farther east you went- who could write).

Although not all of these writings exist within the confines of Papal control, many being in either private writings or state records of the political organizations of the era, a good number of these can be seen (or their facsimiles) in papal records and treatises on Church policy. Some of them can even be seen electronically through the Encylopediae Caltholica (online) and its very warrenish and (excuse the expression) "Byzantine" structure and links. The more intriguing of these usually will lead you to the Vatican's site, and though they will tease you there, you will have to access them through a library or get permission to visit. If you are an Academic Bigwig, perhaps they would send you a copy, but probably not.

Two other sources in the English language to look at are a number of works published and or circulated as academic working papers by Richard Davies, another is work done by Michael Petrovich. You can see some of his material online as well. I believe (if you have the patience to use Real Player, you can even see this Agustian and hear a few of his lectures here: http://palimpsest.lss.wisc.edu/~creeca/
 

Calgacus

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Rio said:
I think you will find that both slavic and western non-slavic linguistic references to (Ruthenian, Polish, Great Russ) sources from the period refer to knaz, knyaz, kniez, knez and so forth as a contextual equivalent of "lord". A Knaz might rule a large area, or a single village. Veliky was oft used in much the same way as we might use the word "high" or in terms of the "dux" or "duc" and refer to either local or not-so-local premiership in terms of mutual defence where there might be the interest of more than one local thug and his hovel at risk.

That's how king is used too, or say Rí in Scottish and Irish. Dux is obviously a bad word for an objective modern translator to use, since it refers initially to a military commander in the later Roman Emperor, and (in CK times) to a King-sized lord who was inferior to some King. Veliky Knyaz, as everyone here knows, was neither. :)