The research tree needs to be rebalanced

[CareTaker Unit #3734]

Currently I find that whenever I play a game of Stellaris I end up behind on the engineering tree, even when running the civic that provides artificers .This is mainly due to the fact that they're just so much more technologies in the engineering tree.

Consider weapons. A lot of the energy weapons are in the physics tree, but basically every other weapon then falls into the engineering tree.

While gene moding being done in the society tree does provide a little bit of balance, the fact that robot moding is done in the engineering tree counters that.

Then of course we get down to the repeatable's where there are about twice as many engineering repeatable's as physics.

I could be good to add a couple sources of engineering research. Maybe allow roboticist to generate a bit of engineering research while they're assembling robots and add a building that only generates engineering research.

 

[Armagodura]

A possible solution would be to find ways to fill up the other categories so they match Engineering. Perhaps we could represent the introduction of anti-gravity technology into a star empire? Just an example I came up with.
Another one, and I don't think it's a good one (but I'm putting it here anyway just in case), would be to split the category in two.

Beyond that, all I can think of is yeeting the strike craft repeatables into physics. Strike craft use energy weapons, after all.

 

[LordIII3]

Or make a dedicated building with proffesions just to generate engeneering research, like engeneers guild that provides engeneer jobs producing engeneering research, reduce building and district upkeep and speed up planetary building. (Or something like this)

 

[Armagodura]

Or make a dedicated building with proffesions just to generate engeneering research, like engeneers guild that provides engeneer jobs producing engeneering research, reduce building and district upkeep and speed up planetary building. (Or something like this)

I've heard this was the case in the earliest versions of the game, but was replaced with what we have now.

The idea of having the dedicated research buildings produce additional bonuses does sound like a nice way to make them a worthwhile alternative (assuming we could build both the all-in-one and the specialized research buildings). You can either build a dedicated tech-world working on all fields, or just put a specific research for the other bonuses (would make planets with a bonus for only one field more enticing, too).

 

[MordridBlack]

I've heard this was the case in the earliest versions of the game, but was replaced with what we have now.

The idea of having the dedicated research buildings produce additional bonuses does sound like a nice way to make them a worthwhile alternative (assuming we could build both the all-in-one and the specialized research buildings). You can either build a dedicated tech-world working on all fields, or just put a specific research for the other bonuses (would make planets with a bonus for only one field more enticing, too).

Yes this was the case back before the 2.0 update

Each research tree had its own tile building that could be upgraded


There were also tiles that naturally gave off engineering research so if you built an engineering lab there, you got more bang for your buck


what we have now is more user friendly, 1 building that gives all research equally



OP if you are struggling on engineering specifically, you may want to try and find a way to nudge the trait for bio pops [if you are running bio pops that is] that helps boost engineering research separate from other research tress

 

[Dementor4]

The codebreaking/firewall techs showing up in the physics tree helped with this, but there are definitely sci-fi technology concepts that fit physics that have yet to be represented in the tech tree: teleportation and other space-time related concepts for example.

How do leaders get from the homeworld to a science vessel 5000 light-years away instantly? How do pops relocate instantly from planet to planet over similar distances? We've got to assume that teleporting person-sized objects from a transmitter to a receiver is what's happening here, but this is fantastical technology we don't actually see represented in the tech tree. Adding some physics techs which enable these features, and others which make them more efficient or add new related features, would be a good way to pad out physics research.

I'm thinking:

• Default state at game start (no teleportation tech): leaders being reassigned have a travel time to their new assignments based on their distance from their current location (usually the homeworld) to the location of their new command. Relocating pops (both manual and automatic) has a similar delay.
• Personal Teleportation (tier 2 particle physics tech): Leaders are transferred instantly to their assignments. Pops are relocated instantly to their new planets.
• Emergency Teleportation (tier 3 particle physics tech) leaders have a 75% chance to survive their ship being destroyed.
• Troop Deployment Beams (tier 3 particle physics tech) adds an auxillary ship component which you can add to your warships. As a bombardment stance, ships equipped with these components will teleport idle assault armies from anywhere in your empire onto the planet they're bombarding.
• Stargates (tier 4 particle physics tech). A building you can place on your worlds, stargates allow for casual travel between worlds. This let's your pops live on one planet, work on another, and entertain themselves on a third. A planet with excess housing or amenities will share those resources with any other planet that also has a Stargate. Defense armies will also freely travel between your worlds via Stargate, so invasions of your worlds can be met with heavy resistance if you have them linked to a fortress world.

 

[HFY]

Then of course we get down to the repeatable's where there are about twice as many engineering repeatable's as physics.

One possible answer to this issue is putting all the +% weapon speed repeatables into one category, and all the +% weapon damage into a different category.

That would remove one major advantage of energy weapons.

 

[fourteenfour]

Has anyone scanned the technologies to get a count ?

Not looking at DLC for what the techs fall into, there are 94 Engineering, 82 Physics, and 118 Society, but I have not figured out a good grep to break out the tech costs and count (ex: @tier1cost2 )

00_apocalypse_tech.txt:7
00_distant_stars_tech.txt:5
00_eng_tech.txt:72
00_eng_tech_repeatable.txt:0
00_eng_weapon_tech.txt:22
00_fallen_empire_tech.txt:0
00_horizonsignal_tech.txt:0
00_leviathans_tech.txt:0
00_megacorp_tech.txt:3
00_megastructures.txt:12
00_phys_tech.txt:60
00_phys_tech_repeatable.txt:0
00_phys_weapon_tech.txt:22
00_repeatable.txt:0
00_soc_tech.txt:118
00_soc_tech_repeatable.txt:0
00_soc_weapon_tech.txt:4
00_strategic_resources_tech.txt:11
00_synthetic_dawn_tech.txt:11
category/00_category.txt:0

 

[MordridBlack]

One possible answer to this issue is putting all the +% weapon speed repeatables into one category, and all the +% weapon damage into a different category.

That would remove one major advantage of energy weapons.

where would they put them though


as it sits those repeating techs are in the tech trees where they belong, they can't exactly move them without redesigning the tech tree to some degree [which would take longer than balancing]



there are 6 tech total that deal with those %

4 in engineering [Kinetic and Missile]
and 2 in physics [Laser/Energy]



at best they could maybe combine the Kinetic and Missile ones together, but that would still take some work in the tech tree

 

[HFY]

where would they put them though


as it sits those repeating techs are in the tech trees where they belong, they can't exactly move them without redesigning the tech tree to some degree [which would take longer than balancing]



there are 6 tech total that deal with those %

4 in engineering [Kinetic and Missile]
and 2 in physics [Laser/Energy]



at best they could maybe combine the Kinetic and Missile ones together, but that would still take some work in the tech tree

The +% speed does not need to be in the same tree as the original tech.

The +% damage does not need to be in the same tree as the original tech.

So they can put all the +% speed in one of (Physics, Engineering) and put all the +% damage in the other.

This would also mean that adding new weapon categories for exotic weapons would not break the repetables meta.

 

[fourteenfour]

How do leaders get from the homeworld to a science vessel 5000 light-years away instantly? How do pops relocate instantly from planet to planet over similar distances? We've got to assume that teleporting person-sized objects from a transmitter to a receiver is what's happening here, but this is fantastical technology we don't actually see represented in the tech tree.

Don't confuse design decisions in the game with technologies. There is no technology to explain away the ability to ignore borders and distance as what is needed to support the ability to move pops and resources from any point to any other. These types of mechanics are there to make life easier on the player but more importantly life easier on the developer. T

Think of technologies like the old Star Trek quandary... if the Federation could use replicator technology to make star ships they would not actually need to.

 

[Yurichenko]

I have never understood why Stellaris uses a random system to select techs instead of the common tech tree like in other Paradox games (HOI4).
My suggestion involves a reworking of the research and technologies system. The game has changed quite a bit since version 2.00 so I don't consider this to be disposable.

New system:
Free research: The 3 slots for scientists ARE NOT LINKED TO ANY KIND OF TECHNOLOGY. With this I seek that each player balance their technological development depending on what they need more, they can use 1, 2 or all 3 slots to develop technologies from the same field instead of researching one by one.

Technology Tree: Now the technologies are presented in a technology tree which will be unlocked according to the technologies that we have previously investigated. In the case of special technologies, we can have a separate screen for them so that they do not mix with the common ones.

Knowledge/Science: Jobs, buildings and other sources no longer generate the current science resources divided into their 3 categories. Instead they now spawn a single resource called "Knowledge" or simply "Science". Now all technologies have a certain value in "Science". As an additional detail, when investigating only 1 technology we use 100% of the science generated, when investigating 2 we use 50% and when investigating 3 we use 33%, thus balancing the speed of investigation with the variety.

Traits: Now the traits and level of scientists are much more important to boost investigations. In the case of civics that enhance the generation of a specific investigation, they could now instead make all recruited scientists have a trait that enhances the investigations of that field and for "smart" civics now makes jobs generate more "Science".

 

[generalis Julius Caesar]

Stargates (tier 4 particle physics tech). A building you can place on your worlds, stargates allow for casual travel between worlds. This let's your pops live on one planet, work on another, and entertain themselves on a third. A planet with excess housing or amenities will share those resources with any other planet that also has a Stargate. Defense armies will also freely travel between your worlds via Stargate, so invasions of your worlds can be met with heavy resistance if you have them linked to a fortress world.

I would love that. It would make resort worlds far more useful, and also give the urban planet designation a use other than prepping for making it an ECU.

 

[Zoroastra]

Just separating the research lab into an engineering/society/physics lab would allow people to focus more of their research potential into the direction they feel they need it or avoid putting too much effort in a field they don't care for. Plenty of mods that already do this and doesn't seem to have any adverse effects as far as I've spotted in any game with such mods.

 

[Yurichenko]

Just separating the research lab into an engineering/society/physics lab would allow people to focus more of their research potential into the direction they feel they need it or avoid putting too much effort in a field they don't care for. Plenty of mods that already do this and doesn't seem to have any adverse effects as far as I've spotted in any game with such mods.

Sorry, but I don't agree. As mentioned, before version 2.00 this method was used and I personally hated it. The space to build buildings is too limited to have to divide the research resources into more than one building. I think it would work better to combine all types of research into a single resource as I suggested.

 

[Zoroastra]

Sorry, but I don't agree. As mentioned, before version 2.00 this method was used and I personally hated it. The space to build buildings is too limited to have to divide the research resources into more than one building. I think it would work better to combine all types of research into a single resource as I suggested.

One does not exclude the other.

all it takes is having 4 buildings and giving the player the option to choose between focused research or evenly spread-out research.

 

[Dementor4]

One does not exclude the other.

all it takes is having 4 buildings and giving the player the option to choose between focused research or evenly spread-out research.

I'm worried that would create much more micro for optimized play. Even if you want totally balanced research in all fields, your best results will still come from creating specifically designed research species with the appropriate "natural scientist" trait and having them staff the correct kind of lab. That's not a terrible thing for everyone: I know I personally love that sort of complexity and micromanagement, but I'm well aware of the fact that most people don't.

It would be a straight buff for a ton of builds, and that might be a good thing or a bad thing, but it has to be considered. Psychics can largely ignore physics research because they get optimal combat computers, shields, and hyperdrives from the shroud, and then use society research to implement them. Do psychics need that kind of buff? Maybe. I'm not presenting this as a pro or con to the concept being discussed, simply as an issue that should be given consideration. Are there other builds that would benefit disproportionately from this feature? All-in on engineering research to increase the rush to synths, then switch to general research to catch up in the rest of your fields? When rushing megastructures to rebuild your shattered ring, is it most optimal to ignore society research entirely and go 80% engineering, 20% physics?

 

[Zoroastra]

I'm worried that would create much more micro for optimized play. Even if you want totally balanced research in all fields, your best results will still come from creating specifically designed research species with the appropriate "natural scientist" trait and having them staff the correct kind of lab. That's not a terrible thing for everyone: I know I personally love that sort of complexity and micromanagement, but I'm well aware of the fact that most people don't.

Easily solved: For people who do NOT enjoy micro managing different species in different occupation, just create 1 species and have them do everything or even better - don't use biological ascension which requires that kinda micro to get the full benefits. Or synthetic which still has micro-able species. Yeah, all the non-micro's can go be psionics and gamble on the damn shroud. You'll probably get eaten by the end of the cycle cause you were too lazy to read the popups but oh well.. *shrugs*

 

[Zoroastra]

It would be a straight buff for a ton of builds, and that might be a good thing or a bad thing, but it has to be considered. Psychics can largely ignore physics research because they get optimal combat computers, shields, and hyperdrives from the shroud, and then use society research to implement them. Do psychics need that kind of buff? Maybe. I'm not presenting this as a pro or con to the concept being discussed, simply as an issue that should be given consideration. Are there other builds that would benefit disproportionately from this feature? All-in on engineering research to increase the rush to synths, then switch to general research to catch up in the rest of your fields? When rushing megastructures to rebuild your shattered ring, is it most optimal to ignore society research entirely and go 80% engineering, 20% physics?

On modded games with these separate research labs, I mostly just use them to boost early industrial tech to get access to bigger ships, stations and habitats.
After which I tend to go for smt like 30 physics/60 engineering/10 society. Unless I - for example - need more Starbases, which requires spamming some society research until you have the starbase cap you want.

as long as you have the minerals, changing one lab for another only requires a little bit of time after all.

 

[Yurichenko]

I insist, I think that a more classical system of research and technology would help everyone to focus more on the technologies that they consider to be priority without having to affect the balance on the planets.