The Research Institute has too little bonus.

[如月莲太]

In the current version, there are fewer building slots in planet and fewer jobs in Advanced Research Complexes. Even if the research world adopts the building template of 1 System Capital-Complex + 1 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 9 Advanced Research Complexes, there are only 54 Researcher in total, and the effect of the Research Institute is to add 15% of the basic output, that is, 4*3*54*15% = 97.2 research points, this is only equivalent to 2.5 researchers in the later stage of the game. Even if one more Science Director is given, it is equivalent to less than 4 researchers, not as good as build an Advanced Research Complexes.
If it is a research ring world (10 Research Segment + 1 System Capital-Complex + 2 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 8 Advanced Research Complexes), there are 148 researchers in total. At this time, the Research Institute can give 4*3*148*15% = 266.4 research points, equivalent to about 6~7 researchers in the later stage, plus an additional Science Director, equivalent to 8 researchers, it's only a little better.
In short, except for the research ring world, the construction of Research Institute is basically a loss in most cases.
Now, Energy Nexus, Mineral Purification Hubs, Food Processing Centers, Civilian Repli-Complexes and Alloy Nano-Plants all add basic output, and the effect is very strong. I don't know why only the Research Institute hasn't made adjustment.
As weak as Research Institute is Ministry of Production, which only provides 15% of the basic output, but it is better than none.
In addition, I hope to have more unique empire buildings. Generally speaking, in the current version, the empire capital is not much different from other colonies. In the later stage, it is all research world.
The name of the grand embassy is too strange. It should be called the Ministry of foreign affairs. You can also add new buildings, such as the Ministry of science and technology, increase national research output, the Ministry of public security, reduce national crime, and so on... To let players have a real empire heart.
Since version 1.5, the effect of the Science Nexus has not changed, now it seems too weak. It would be a good idea to add a Research director to all planets with each upgrade.
I also hope that the subordinate organization of Galaxy community is no longer just a buff machine.
For example, we can issue red notices to Interstellar fugitives through the Interstellar Criminal Police Organization.This will be used to deter traitors and spies who betray our empire.Of course, players can also use it to sanction the leader of the other empire which you hate, if you are strong enough.
I also hope players can send leaders to interstellar organizations, but this should first go through some election procedures. It would be great if the speaker of Galaxy community is a leader from our empire.

 

[Celulthor]

In the current version, there are fewer building slots in planet and fewer jobs in Advanced Research Complexes. Even if the research world adopts the building template of 1 System Capital-Complex + 1 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 9 Advanced Research Complexes, there are only 54 Researcher in total, and the effect of the Research Institute is to add 15% of the basic output, that is, 4*3*54*15% = 97.2 research points, this is only equivalent to 2.5 researchers in the later stage of the game. Even if one more Science Director is given, it is equivalent to less than 4 researchers, not as good as build an Advanced Research Complexes.
If it is a research ring world (10 Research Segment + 1 System Capital-Complex + 2 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 8 Advanced Research Complexes), there are 148 researchers in total. At this time, the Research Institute can give 4*3*148*15% = 266.4 research points, equivalent to about 6~7 researchers in the later stage, plus an additional Science Director, equivalent to 8 researchers, it's only a little better.
In short, except for the research ring world, the construction of Research Institute is basically a loss in most cases.
Now, Energy Nexus, Mineral Purification Hubs, Food Processing Centers, Civilian Repli-Complexes and Alloy Nano-Plants all add basic output, and the effect is very strong. I don't know why only the Research Institute hasn't made adjustment.
As weak as Research Institute is Ministry of Production, which only provides 15% of the basic output, but it is better than none.
In addition, I hope to have more unique empire buildings. Generally speaking, in the current version, the empire capital is not much different from other colonies. In the later stage, it is all research world.
The name of the grand embassy is too strange. It should be called the Ministry of foreign affairs. You can also add new buildings, such as the Ministry of science and technology, increase national research output, the Ministry of public security, reduce national crime, and so on... To let players have a real empire heart.
Since version 1.5, the effect of the Science Nexus has not changed, now it seems too weak. It would be a good idea to add a Research director to all planets with each upgrade.
I also hope that the subordinate organization of Galaxy community is no longer just a buff machine.
For example, we can issue red notices to Interstellar fugitives through the Interstellar Criminal Police Organization.This will be used to deter traitors and spies who betray our empire.Of course, players can also use it to sanction the leader of the other empire which you hate, if you are strong enough.
I also hope players can send leaders to interstellar organizations, but this should first go through some election procedures. It would be great if the speaker of Galaxy community is a leader from our empire.

If your limiting bottleneck resource was planetary space, then you would be right. However, in my opinion the bottleneck resource is usually population to be employed in those researcher jobs.

For large part of the game you have not filled all those planets, and during that time you can enjoy that 15% bonus. When you are reaching the breakeven point of the 15% bonus vs. more jobs, instead replacing the Institute you should instead consider building more planetary space, i.e habitats. Only exception would be planets with inherent research bonus greater than or equal to 15% you get from Advanced Research Institute - those planets you should fill to brim without the Institute

You will find that by mid game you can consistently build enough habitat space (each with Advanced Research Institute) to keep housing all your new researchers - who will grow ever slower due to current growth model. This, I think, is a more efficient way use your limited pops.

 

[sillyrobot]

In the current version, there are fewer building slots in planet and fewer jobs in Advanced Research Complexes. Even if the research world adopts the building template of 1 System Capital-Complex + 1 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 9 Advanced Research Complexes, there are only 54 Researcher in total, and the effect of the Research Institute is to add 15% of the basic output, that is, 4*3*54*15% = 97.2 research points, this is only equivalent to 2.5 researchers in the later stage of the game. Even if one more Science Director is given, it is equivalent to less than 4 researchers, not as good as build an Advanced Research Complexes.
If it is a research ring world (10 Research Segment + 1 System Capital-Complex + 2 Hyper-Entertainment Forums + 1 Research Institute + 8 Advanced Research Complexes), there are 148 researchers in total. At this time, the Research Institute can give 4*3*148*15% = 266.4 research points, equivalent to about 6~7 researchers in the later stage, plus an additional Science Director, equivalent to 8 researchers, it's only a little better.
In short, except for the research ring world, the construction of Research Institute is basically a loss in most cases.
Now, Energy Nexus, Mineral Purification Hubs, Food Processing Centers, Civilian Repli-Complexes and Alloy Nano-Plants all add basic output, and the effect is very strong. I don't know why only the Research Institute hasn't made adjustment.
As weak as Research Institute is Ministry of Production, which only provides 15% of the basic output, but it is better than none.
In addition, I hope to have more unique empire buildings. Generally speaking, in the current version, the empire capital is not much different from other colonies. In the later stage, it is all research world.
The name of the grand embassy is too strange. It should be called the Ministry of foreign affairs. You can also add new buildings, such as the Ministry of science and technology, increase national research output, the Ministry of public security, reduce national crime, and so on... To let players have a real empire heart.
Since version 1.5, the effect of the Science Nexus has not changed, now it seems too weak. It would be a good idea to add a Research director to all planets with each upgrade.
I also hope that the subordinate organization of Galaxy community is no longer just a buff machine.
For example, we can issue red notices to Interstellar fugitives through the Interstellar Criminal Police Organization.This will be used to deter traitors and spies who betray our empire.Of course, players can also use it to sanction the leader of the other empire which you hate, if you are strong enough.
I also hope players can send leaders to interstellar organizations, but this should first go through some election procedures. It would be great if the speaker of Galaxy community is a leader from our empire.

Not really. The building employs 1 pop rather than 2 and that job is better than a base researcher (5 research + 5 amenity vs. 4 research). The base lab makes 8 research from 2 pops.

I'll disregard the amenity production for this analysis. It is a handy side-effect though and can potentially free a building slot from supporting entertainers but it is a small amount compared to an entertainer so that can't be expected.

To make up for the missing 3 research, the 15% bonus would need a base 15 other research from jobs in the colony. So unless you already have 4 research jobs, you are better off building another lab to maximise research output assuming you have the 2 potential workers. But once you have at least 4 researcher jobs, adding the institute provides more research than the base building.

A maxed out research lab has 6 researchers for a total of 24 research -- 19 more than a science director assuming you have the population to support it. To match that output with an institute, the colony has to produce 122 research or 30ish researcher jobs (about 8 maxed labs) outside the science director position.

So to recap, if you have 4 researcher jobs and thus 16 research, a new lab adds 8 research for 2 jobs. A institute adds 8.15 research + 5 amenities for 1 job. If you have more than 4 researcher jobs, an institute will cause the colony to produce more than a new base lab. But, the institute doesn't have an upgrade path. To produce more than the max research building requires 7 to 8 maxed research labs on the same colony which is well within building slot tolerance.

 

[Mastikator]

The research institute also has 1 exotic gas upkeep. A research lab level 2 has the same upkeep but employs 4 researchers.

The research institute should simply employ 3 researchers and 1 science director. Now it's slightly better than a level 2 lab rather than being worse than a level 1 lab. A level 3 lab will still be competitive compared vs an institute, I can live with that.

 

[mial42]

Another reason to add research districts on the model of industrial ones. Makes the research institute excellent and worth the gas/lategame tech.

 

[Franton]

Given the changes to the corresponding buildings for other resources, I would have expected a change to the Research Institute to something like +1/+1/+1 to base research instead of +15%. That would scale much better throughout the course of the game.

 

[sillyrobot]

The research institute also has 1 exotic gas upkeep. A research lab level 2 has the same upkeep but employs 4 researchers.

The research institute should simply employ 3 researchers and 1 science director. Now it's slightly better than a level 2 lab rather than being worse than a level 1 lab. A level 3 lab will still be competitive compared vs an institute, I can live with that.

I tend to upgrade very few buildings on colonies until very late-game going wide rather than tall. The institute is great as the third or later research building. It offers more for that building slot then a new base lab and the gas cost tends to be negligible at this phase.

Later on, when deepening the colonies, it still wins when comparing building and upgrading a final lab if there are 19 researcher jobs on the colony. That's pretty much the default case though. The institute effectively replaces the last base lab rather than the first lab upgrade.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Another reason to add research districts on the model of industrial ones. Makes the research institute excellent and worth the gas/lategame tech.

Yeah, shifting to a much more strict "districts produce, buildings modify" model would make a lot of difference.

 

[Millbot]

Mileage is going to vary based on how many building slots you can get open. So builds can get all twelve, while others might have a hard time getting to 9. The other variable is going to be how many building slots you need for other things. I usually par my research labs with industrial districts, preferring to let my resource worlds handle refineries. So usually my worlds with research labs, that aren't gestalts, are going to have 5 slots eaten up off the bat by non-research buildings. Obviously, the capital building, but you also lose one to entertainers, ministry of production and another to either an alloy foundry or civilian industries. Finally, you ascension path of choice is going to eat up a slot because the special building for psionic and bio ascensions are worth getting. I mean, more often than not, I'm going to build robots, so that can easily shift to 6 slots if I go down psionic. Finally, with mining subsidies being worth it, you could lose a few slots to strategic resource mining buildings (don't believe that refinery worlds are worth it anymore since they don't boost output, which indirectly buffs the mining ones).

So assuming most of your worlds don't go behind needing 5 building. Your research institute would be you sixth non-research lab building. That gives you six research labs. If non are upgraded, that's 12 researchers pumping out 48 of each research type. Your research institute then gives you another four +15% for each research on that world. Given that you have 13 researchers, with one pumping out 1 extra research, that gives you 61 research which means you get 9.15 research or a little over one more research point than you would have gotten with another lab. If you fully upgrade everything, that would come out to 37 researchers producing 149 research. The institute then gives you another 22.35 research points, but this ends up being less than building another research lab.

I know odds get better for technocracy, since any reasonably developed colony that can justify an institute is going to have at least one science director and those produce 5 research. Also directors is where math probably does get messy because all the modifiers could be the make or break of a institute being worth it, since directors produce more research. Also things can get more favorable on worlds that have special features that give you researcher jobs, provided that they aren't solely producing physics research because IMO that is the least useful research with the amount of physic deposits we seem to get and that the tree isn't that bloated. Society research is iffy and you can never have enough engineering research. Also institute is always going to be worth it on research rings and pure research habitats (aka ones with research districts) because the more researchers you get that aren't tied to the building, the easier it is to pass the break even point.

I'd argue this is an oversight on the devs part. When we got this building we had 4 more buildings slots and I'm pretty sure they expected people to keeping research production separate from consumer good and alloy production. Plus, the labs gave us 8 researchers and the institutes had no gas upkeep. So I want to say that the institute's boost still outpaced what you could get from having another lab.

It probably needs an upgrade path, in the way that foundries and factories work. So tier one of hit shouldn't cost any gas. I'd also argue that a way to indirectly or directly boost it's value would be to take a look at the ministry of production. IIRC this use to be a building that was normally unavailable to gestalts, I think rogue servitor was the only gestalt that could get it. I did check my current game with a vanilla machine empire and it can build them (I assume hives have the same deal now, but I could be wrong) So the building wasn't quite redundant, since I saw it as a means for non-gestalts and rogue servitors to offset the disadvantage of have to dump minerals into consumer goods. At this point, I'd argue the building is redundant for the most part because regardless of what you're doing on a world that makes alloys and/or consumer goods, you're plopping that building down because you're always going to have a ton of industrial districts to make it always worth it.

I see three potential fixes. You either remove ministry of production from the game, which I'm most in favor of because that would potential give most worlds the option to have 7 labs or at the very least require the least amount of buffing to institutes. That would be 177 research total from 43 researchers and 26.55 research from the institute boost or 1.8 more research than building another lab. Another option that would make the ministry not redundant but require removing it from most gestalts would be to have it mutually exclusive with foundries and factories and have it be the go to building for worlds that produce both alloys and consumer goods. I don't really like this because the building won't see much use and probably will struggle to justify itself for rogue servitors because that's a slot you could just fill with another organic sanctuary. Final solution would be to have the ministry of production also impact research output as well (you could have it exclusive from the other boosting buildings as well), but I don't like this either because it likely still makes institutes hard to justify. Also I really do feel that it's just bloat at this point given that we have less building slots now and it's just a boring boost to output, when we have other buildings that do just that.

I will note because trying to differentiate between tall and wide builds is a thing of mine. There is potential here to make this a key in such setups. AKA if we had to choose between tall or wide sometime before year 5 and it was a choice we couldn't undo. You could say leave the research institute as is for wide builds, they end up having harder time getting optimal use from it and don't even build it on some of their research worlds because of how they had to use their building slots. Where tall gets a boost to the output from institute and other buildings intended to amplify production because tall ends up needing to get the most out of the space they occupy, while wide just expands to something else to exploit.

Also, yes, I'm aware pops tend to be the bigger bottleneck which probably means the break even point is a touch lower than the amount of research that another lab can produce. More pops requires you to do more upkeep, which means possibly needing more pops to fill jobs in order to meet those upkeep needs. That said, if the devs do intent to make tall viable, it's something that needs to be considered since tall is more likely to hit the point where you do have to consider if that's the best use of a slot or not.

 

[Franton]

Mileage is going to vary based on how ...

If you want people to read your arguments, maybe try to keep it shorter.

Skimming over it I haven't seen anything that hasn't been mentioned before, and I can only repeat what was already stated very early in this thread: pops are the bottleneck, not building slots! Therefore the question is not whether you can afford a building slot for it, or how many jobs it provides. You have to compare the average output per pop on this planet, not the total output.

In 2.x, comparing the total output gained from a building slot made sense because back then you used to cram as many pops on a planet as possible. Now however it's hard to get most planets to 50 pops and unlock the last capital upgrade! Given that you can easily unlock 20 or more jobs from districts alone, there is hardly a need to use all building slots.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

In 2.x, comparing the total output gained from a building slot made sense because back then you used to cram as many pops on a planet as possible. Now however it's hard to get most planets to 50 pops and unlock the last capital upgrade! Given that you can easily unlock 20 or more jobs from districts alone, there is hardly a need to use all building slots.

I mean if you're building a dedicated tech world, i.e. the planet specialization that wants a Research Institute, you are going to want to use all the building slots because you can't get researchers from planet districts.

That said, it'll still take you a good long while to fill all the researcher jobs you can get.

My QoL opinion is that it's annoying that replacing a research lab with a research institute leaves me with an unemployed specialist or three. I agree with @Mastikator that the research institute should simply also add a couple researcher jobs.

 

[Franton]

My QoL opinion is that it's annoying that replacing a research lab with a research institute leaves me with an unemployed specialist or three

That is literally a non-issue. At no point in the development of a tech world do you not want to have a Research Institute, unless you actually have unemployed pops (*):
- Early on, a science director creates mor research than a researcher, so the first pop looking for a job will prefer that job over pretty much any other.
- Once you have some researchers working, you do want the +15% bonus
- Once your tech world is nearly maxed out (including a Research Institute, you will want to find another world that you can build up as a tech world, and send any surplus pops over there.

As already stated repeatedly, in 3.x, too may pops is a scenario that is simply not happening. Planning for it is a mistake.

(*) having unemployed pops and no reasonable way to increase the number of jobs is something that sometimes happens to me in two cases: (1) at the very beginning, before finding a suitable second planet, after runnng out of districts and building slots on the home world. This is a real problem for certain origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers as these have a hard time setting up the first colony. Or, (2), later on, when buggy auto-job-assignment promotes employed workers into occupied specialist jobs, leaving my specialists unemployed, and unable to switch to the orphaned worker job. Both cases have nothing to do with the question an when or whether to use the Research Institute though.

There's a third case: overpopulation from pop raiding (Raiding Bombardment). But if you're using that, you have to build your economy for it, and you should do something to help move these pops around cheaply, such as having pops enslaved, or using Corvee System. In that case, you simply move unemployed pops whereever they're needed, and again th equestion of replacing a RI with a lab never arises.

 

[Oculument]

The last thing this game needs is a general buff to research generation.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

That is literally a non-issue. At no point in the development of a tech world do you not want to have a Research Institute, unless you actually have unemployed pops (*):
- Early on, a science director creates mor research than a researcher, so the first pop looking for a job will prefer that job over pretty much any other.
- Once you have some researchers working, you do want the +15% bonus
- Once your tech world is nearly maxed out (including a Research Institute, you will want to find another world that you can build up as a tech world, and send any surplus pops over there.

Want ≠ have. Situations in which this can, in fact, be an issue:

• Filled all my building slots before upgrading to Planetary Capital
• Didn't have access to exotic gases yet
• Hadn't finished researching Research Institute
• Conquered colony didn't have one
• High population planet* filled with Research Complexes before finished researching Advanced Research Complexes
  • Replace a research complex with a research institute first and you have three unemployed specialists who may auto-resettle away before you finish upgrading two research complexes.
  • Upgrade a research complex first and workers promote into the new researcher jobs, bring you back to square one.

*Reasons why I might be maxing out on researchers, which provide more research per building slot if you have the pops to fill the jobs:

• Want to specifically use this planet because of research bonus modifier
• Low habitable planets / guaranteed habitable worlds settings
• Boxed in
• Don't have spare influence to resettle surplus pops to brand new tech world
• Limiting factor currently exotic gas supply, not pops or building slots
• Resettled a bunch of pops from colony about to be lost

 

[sillyrobot]

The last thing this game needs is a general buff to research generation.

But but but I find hitting 200K a month before 2400 hard! Another buff would push me over this barrier!

 

[DeanTheDull]

Want ≠ have. Situations in which this can, in fact, be an issue:

• Filled all my building slots before upgrading to Planetary Capital
• Didn't have access to exotic gases yet
• Hadn't finished researching Research Institute
• Conquered colony didn't have one
• High population planet* filled with Research Complexes before finished researching Advanced Research Complexes
  • Replace a research complex with a research institute first and you have three unemployed specialists who may auto-resettle away before you finish upgrading two research complexes.
  • Upgrade a research complex first and workers promote into the new researcher jobs, bring you back to square one.

*Reasons why I might be maxing out on researchers, which provide more research per building slot if you have the pops to fill the jobs:

• Want to specifically use this planet because of research bonus modifier
• Low habitable planets / guaranteed habitable worlds settings
• Boxed in
• Don't have spare influence to resettle surplus pops to brand new tech world
• Limiting factor currently exotic gas supply, not pops or building slots
• Resettled a bunch of pops from colony about to be lost

This is just inconsistent. Are you in the late-game, where there are significant numbers of high-population planets with research complexes (requiring gas), or are you so early-game you don't tier 2 techs that are required to build them? Do you have so much influence and energy you are manually resettle colonies in a war, or are you in a build where you can't auto-resettle surplus pops for free? Are you a victorious aggressor conquering an enemy's planets and capturing their pops with fleets and armies based on minerals, or so mineral-poor you can't re-develop the planet and have no pops who can work on the planets you just captured?

Yes, yes, I get that you were intending to try and list varieties of different scenarios, but these are objections that negate eachother, and don't prove any actual point. In specific scenarios you may not be able to do specific things... which proves nothing other than that you can't do the specific thing. It has no standing on the pop-efficiency, which is the point of what you are referring to.