The Republicans in Spain were not Communist

[pedrito_elcabra]

And this is why you don't start a thread about historical accuracy based on a Wikipedia article.

No offense to the OP, but clearly there wasn't a lot of background knowledge behind the first post, and many of the initial premises are weak or outright wrong.

I don't claim to be a specialist in those 3 dark years in our history, but I do know that, as the war progressed, the republican side aligned itself increasingly with the USSR because they were the only reliable source of armaments and high level military training.

Other than that, the Spanish Civil War was a massive mess, as several posters before me have already pointed out. There is no way to represent it in game, in fact it would deserve a game on its own. So as far as I'm concerned the current solution is OK - not ideal, but OK.

 

[Evan05]

But they WERE socialist.

Would you consider a ultra-Catholic, traditionalist, and nationalist to be Socialist? The Basque Nationalist Party was exactly that, and they sided with the Republicans. Same with various Catalan Nationalist movements.

However, calling the entire leading coalition as "Socialist" I think is ridiculous. There was a vast array of ideologies ranging any where from centrist to left-leaning Democrats to communists to anarchists to etc. They were not all Socialist and even amongst the Socialist there were didn't variants and some that opposed Stalinism or the USSR and others that favored it.

And this is why you don't start a thread about historical accuracy based on a Wikipedia article.

No offense to the OP, but clearly there wasn't a lot of background knowledge behind the first post, and many of the initial premises are weak or outright wrong.

I don't claim to be a specialist in those 3 dark years in our history, but I do know that, as the war progressed, the republican side aligned itself increasingly with the USSR because they were the only reliable source of armaments and high level military training.

Other than that, the Spanish Civil War was a massive mess, as several posters before me have already pointed out. There is no way to represent it in game, in fact it would deserve a game on its own. So as far as I'm concerned the current solution is OK - not ideal, but OK.

If you have definitively better sources then me that prove me wrong, I would love to see them.

 

[Peter Wass]

And this is why you don't start a thread about historical accuracy based on a Wikipedia article.

Not just historical accuracy. If your argument is based on Wikipedia then you have no argument.

 

[kviiri]

I don't claim to be a specialist in those 3 dark years in our history, but I do know that, as the war progressed, the republican side aligned itself increasingly with the USSR because they were the only reliable source of armaments and high level military training.

I think you may have a point but you've got two things wrong. First one: "Communism" in HoI4 doesn't equate with the wide spectrum of real life leftist ideology. In HoI4 communist states have a single-party rule with no elections, so democratic socialist movements are still classified as "Democratic". In fact Finland's "blue" (democratic) party is the Sosialidemokraattinen Puolue, also a socialist party.

Which brings us to the second point: you can't really judge a faction's ideology based on who supports them. It makes sense for Soviets to support a democratic socialist (even if they're not communist) movement over an anti-communist movement of Franco. Foreign political alignment is distinct from internal politics - see from example Brazil, who joined the WWII on the Allied side despite having a fascist government.

Like I said earlier I think the best way to do this would be a Democratic/Communist coalition government, but I still don't know if they're in the game or not (they were only briefly mentioned in DD12 and haven't been revisited since).

 

[Evan05]

Not just historical accuracy. If your argument is based on Wikipedia then you have no argument.

My argument is based off of historical fact that I sourced from Wikipedia. If you have a better source, feel free to post it but until then, you claims are absolutely baseless.

 

[Abayonett]

Hello. So on Wednesday I watched the latest World War Wednesday video in which Daniel played single player as Japan, and when the Spanish civil war event triggered and Daniel clicked on Republican Spain, it showed the Republicans as Communist.

At 44:07 on the youtube video it is shown that the Republicans are Communist as far as the game is concerned:

The issue with labeling the Republicans as Communist is that while many of the armies and generals with the Republicans were Communist or at least left-wing, along with may of it's leaders, the faction itself did not have any goals of founding a Communist regime but merely keeping the Second Spanish Republic in power.

On the Wikipedia Page on the Republican Faction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_faction_(Spanish_Civil_War)

It is stated that "The Republican faction (Spanish: Bando republicano), also known as the Loyalist faction, was the side in the Spanish Civil War of 1936 to 1939 that supported the established government of the Second Spanish Republic against the Nationalist or rebel faction of the military rebellion." Along with Democratic and Communist forces, many Nationalist forces including Catalan and Basque separatist movements, anarchist fought with the Republicans. Hell so many prominent Communist politicans and generals were within the Republican's side somewhere that they were often called Los rojos (The reds), but the Communists weren't the only ones that made up the Republican military or government.

On the Wikipedia page on the Spanish civil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War#Republicans

It is stated that: "The Republic's supporters within Spain ranged from centrists who supported a moderately-capitalist liberal democracy to revolutionary anarchists who opposed the Republic but sided with it against the coup forces." The Republic was a Democratic faction that even many Communists opposed but simply fought for as the alternative (Fascist Spain) was much worse for them.

Also, the Soviet Union was not the only nation to support the Republicans. Mexico offered direct material aid, and the British and French followed a policy of "Other countries, such as Britain and France, operated an official policy of nonintervention, but "substantial unofficial aid flowed from France to the Loyalists".

While there was a very large base of Communist and Socialist supporters, the Republcians were ultimately a united faction on ideal of keeping the Second Spanish Republic in power and stopping the Fascists from taking power, not setting up a new Communist regime. That is why they should be Democratic and not Communist.

Tl;dr - Republicans should be Democratic, not Communist in HOI4

As the civil war proceeded and things got worse the communists supported by the USSR gained more and more power and influence over the loyalists, besides Franco's faction was not fascist, the National front in Spain had Catholics, conservatives, monarchists and carlists, the falange, the only fascist group in Franco's coalition, was not even that big at the time. The Spanish civil war was way more than commies vs fascists and it stemmed from a myriad of internal problems unrelated to those ideologies. For that matter, making WW2 into a big battle of ideologies (Democracy vs Fascism vs Communism) is simplistic at best; however, Its just a game so who cares

 

[Evan05]

As the civil war proceeded and things got worse the communists supported by the USSR gained more and more power and influence over the loyalists, besides Franco's faction was not fascist, the National front in Spain had Catholics, conservatives, monarchists and carlists, the falange, the only fascist group in Franco's coalition, was not even that big at the time. The Spanish civil war was way more than commies vs fascists and it stemmed from a myriad of internal problems unrelated to those ideologies. For that matter, making WW2 into a big battle of ideologies (Democracy vs Fascism vs Communism) is simplistic at best; however, Its just a game so who cares

Foreign support from other powers does not equate into internal politics.

It may also just be a game, but it's a game a lot of people are excited for and a game that still has nearly three more months of development which means the Devs still have a fair amount of time to make changes and rebalance things.

 

[Caesar15]

The best way to handle Republican Spain is through them being communist. Sure, they weren't communism. But there's no better way of handling their side without making some kind of DLC based around it.

 

[Evan05]

The best way to handle Republican Spain is through them being communist. Sure, they weren't communism. But there's no better way of handling their side without making some kind of DLC based around it.

How about making them Democrats with an event chain for after they will the civil war that can have multiple outcomes including them staying Democrats, them turning Communist, or even a second Spanish civil war.

That would allow for more alternate history, more fun, more choice on part of the player, and would make the Spanish situation more interesting and could add more flavor.

 

[Peter Wass]

My argument is based off of historical fact that I sourced from Wikipedia. If you have a better source, feel free to post it but until then, you claims are absolutely baseless.

Appeals to authority are fallacious with the best of authorities. When it is the bargain basement of authorities it just doubles down on the dumb.

 

[Evan05]

Appeals to authority are fallacious with the best of authorities. When it is the bargain basement of authorities it just doubles down on the dumb.

Are you going to give a better source and/or offer a different gameplay solution or not?

 

[Ultranoob]

The Republican Spain

How about making them Democrats with an event chain for after they will the civil war that can have multiple outcomes including them staying Democrats, them turning Communist, or even a second Spanish civil war.

That would allow for more alternate history, more fun, more choice on part of the player, and would make the Spanish situation more interesting and could add more flavor.

I agree with this, but in my opinion it should offer you diferent branches, either fighting the trotskian parties and the anarchic sindicates to embrace ussrr protection, aligne with the western democracies of UK and france or just go all in and let the CNT take the power (anarchic sindicate that had numerous regiments of volunteers and was very influencial during the war)

 

[Evan05]

The Republican Spain


I agree with this, but in my opinion it should offer you diferent branches, either fighting the trotskian parties and the anarchic sindicates to embrace ussrr protection, aligne with the western democracies of UK and france or just go all in and let the CNT take the power (anarchic sindicate that had numerous regiments of volunteers and was very influencial during the war)

More (plausible) options and outcomes are good.

 

[frolix42]

IRL the "Republican" side had a number of center to left factions backing it, but as the Civil War wore on, both sides became more radicalized. As the Republican cause grew more hopeless, the Soviet Union became the only thing keeping the Republican cause alive. Unsurprisingly the Soviets backed the Stalinist faction until the "Republicans" were de facto Communists. George Orwell documented the Communist takeover of the Republican cause in his book Homage to Catalonia. Orwell was essentially driven out of Spain in mid-1937 because he did not follow the Stalinist party line.

If the SU supports Republican Spain, while France and Britain do nothing, they should (and did) strongly lean Communist.

An actual issue with the Spanish Civil is that in HoI4 is AFAIK it generally (still) lasts 3 months instead of 3 years. It's too easy for one side to overrun the other and I'd like for that to be balanced.

 

[Evan05]

IRL the "Republican" side had a number of center to left factions backing it, but as the Civil War wore on, both sides became more radicalized. As the Republican cause grew more hopeless, the Soviet Union became the only thing keeping the Republican cause alive. Unsurprisingly the Soviets backed the Stalinist faction until the "Republicans" were de facto Communists. George Orwell documented the Communist takeover of the Republican cause in his book Homage to Catalonia. Orwell was essentially driven out of Spain in mid-1937 because he did not follow the Stalinist party line.

If the SU supports Republican Spain, while France and Britain do nothing, they should (and did) strongly lean Communist.

An actual issue with the Spanish Civil is that in HoI4 is AFAIK it generally (still) lasts 3 months instead of 3 years. It's too easy for one side to overrun the other and I'd like for that to be balanced.

Do you think them leaning Democratic or Communist should depend on which country they receive more aid from?

 

[OBRkenobi]

Mexico also supported them. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War#Mexico

Fun Fact: Mexico was socialist at the time.

 

[Evan05]

Fun Fact: Mexico was socialist at the time.

From what I know, Mexico is not going to be considered Communist in HOI4.

 

[OBRkenobi]

Would you consider a ultra-Catholic, traditionalist, and nationalist to be Socialist? The Basque Nationalist Party was exactly that, and they sided with the Republicans. Same with various Catalan Nationalist movements.

However, calling the entire leading coalition as "Socialist" I think is ridiculous. There was a vast array of ideologies ranging any where from centrist to left-leaning Democrats to communists to anarchists to etc. They were not all Socialist and even amongst the Socialist there were didn't variants and some that opposed Stalinism or the USSR and others that favored it.



If you have definitively better sources then me that prove me wrong, I would love to see them.

The leader of Republican Spain during the civil war as represented in the game was a democratic socialist, which supersedes the leadership and thus the ideology of the groups you described. Besides, the game isn't such a complex political simulator as to be able account for every different political viewpoint of all of the participants in the Spanish civil war. Although I disagree with how the government is represented as communist in the game though (at least in 1936). I do however believe that this categorisation does suit the gameplay quite nicely with the fascist/communist dynamic determining Spain's involvement in WW2.

 

[OBRkenobi]

From what I know, Mexico is not going to be considered Communist in HOI4.

Of course not. I don't entirely agree with with how republican Spain is portrayed in HoI4 either. Just don't use Mexico as an excuse to say that republican Spain was receiving aid from non-socialist countries and thus wasn't socialist.

 

[Evan05]

The leader of Republican Spain during the civil war as represented in the game was a democratic socialist, which supersedes the leadership and thus the ideology of the groups you described. Besides, the game isn't such a complex political simulator as to be able account for every different political viewpoint of all of the participants in the Spanish civil war. Although I disagree with how the government is represented as communist in the game though (at least in 1936). I do however believe that this categorisation does suit the gameplay quite nicely with the fascist/communist dynamic determining Spain's involvement in WW2.

I think it would be best gameplay wise if the Republicans stayed Democratic until after the war. If they win the war, an event chain fires that could result in multiple different outcomes including turning Democratic, tuning Communist, facing a second civil war between the Republic and the Communist revolutionaries, etc.

I also feel that kviiri pretty much hits the nail on the head for why Republican Spain should not be considered Communist:

I think you may have a point but you've got two things wrong. First one: "Communism" in HoI4 doesn't equate with the wide spectrum of real life leftist ideology. In HoI4 communist states have a single-party rule with no elections, so democratic socialist movements are still classified as "Democratic". In fact Finland's "blue" (democratic) party is the Sosialidemokraattinen Puolue, also a socialist party.

Which brings us to the second point: you can't really judge a faction's ideology based on who supports them. It makes sense for Soviets to support a democratic socialist (even if they're not communist) movement over an anti-communist movement of Franco. Foreign political alignment is distinct from internal politics - see from example Brazil, who joined the WWII on the Allied side despite having a fascist government.

Like I said earlier I think the best way to do this would be a Democratic/Communist coalition government, but I still don't know if they're in the game or not (they were only briefly mentioned in DD12 and haven't been revisited since).