The Republicans in Spain were not Communist

[zebtucker]

So paradox have taken sides death to the blasted communist franco was right he was protecting spain from communism all along!
Also would not making them communist make it so that the republicans will never ever receive support from the allies ?
Also wasn't the whole catastrophic shift to the left and giving command to the communist thanks to the west not sending any aid and standing idly by when the axis and american companies did it?

 

[Basileios Makedon]

Hmm... Interesting

Before the military coup, the Republic was indeed a democracy. The leading party of the coalition, the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party, was not socialist, but social-democrat.

After the coup, both the communists and the anarchists defended the republic. The communists wanted to wait for the end of the war to make their revolution, while the anarchists didn't wanted to wait.

In the first years of the war, the anarchists where majority and had great losses because they didn't want to obey the republican generals and had their own.

When the anarchists were weakened, they rebelled in Barcelona, and the Government and the communists sided together and destroyed the rebellion. Then the communists replaced the anarchist ministers in the Government.

Why did the communists sided with the Government? Because of the promise of the revolution after the war. So I think that, after the war, Republican Spain should have an event whose options should be:
-Turn Communist
-Remain Democratic ( the communists may rebel )

 

[CharlieFox]

Its complicated. Before the war they should be treated as a democracy with a left party in power. However, when the war started it was almost like communist revolution, with priests, right wing politicians or every one being considered upper class being targeted by militias/angry mobs. Also, because factory owners were gone factories were collectivized by its workers.

Had the republican side won, it's not clear what could have happened, they could either gone full communist, return to the situation before the war or something in between.

 

[qer]

The Republican side is complicated. While it is true that there were non-radical republicans, as the war advanced the communist gained more power. Also there were internal struggle with the anarquist and the Trotskyist , specifically when Negrin become prime minister (and he was a communist). I think that it is not accurate if in 1936 it is already communist, but if the war lasts long enough, the republic could become communist

 

[kviiri]

I think it'd make sense if the Republicans were represented as a Democracy/Socialist coalition government. That is, assuming the coalition governments mentioned in DD12 are still in the game.

I'm a bit weirded out, btw, about Franco's government having 100% support on his turf while Nationalist Spain is heavily divided between Democracy and Communism. Shouldn't both sides have a bit of local support for the opposing ideology or something?

 

[No idea]

There should be two periods:

1. Before SCW starts (IF it starts) Spain should be a democracy.

2. AFTER the SCW starts, the republican side should be communist.

It is not 100% accurate but it is the best aproximation to reality, imho.

 

[aruon]

this is why i think there should be a second SCW if the nationalists fall. even potentially a resurgent nationalist uprising too to make a 2nd SCW a francoist-republican-rojo free for all. i really hope PDS does something like this because spain really could've been even more of a ideological shooting galley than it IRL was. and even the neutral faction could be occupied by a constitutional monarchy in the event of a truce between nationalists and democratic republicans.

(this flag is a bit of an edit to something i found on that althistory wiki site.)

 

[J_Master]

Civil Wars are rife with betrayal and suspicion for they are born in treasons. Your comment brings to mind an old board game of the multi-sided Russian Civil War where the players would have interests, forces and resources (some publicly known, some hidden) on both sides but only the Reds or Whites could win and you wanted to be at the top of the winning side. Pretty perfect subject matter for a hybrid war/political game.

What is the name of this game, I need to know!!! Finally, I can play as the mad baron during the russian civil war!

 

[Zaelot]

Republicans goberment werent comunist.

Comunists supported the republican goberment.

Its totally diferent.

About the flag, The tri-colored flag with purple is an imbention for some years (31-39). The REAL historical republican flag is the actual spanish flag, red and yelow.

 

[Thiomay]

Communist in game explicitly means anti-democratic. Whether the coalition was left/socialist isn't relevent as long as they are supporting representative democracy instead of a council republic they are democrats. In game terms republican spain should probably have a coalition of 'democrats' and maybe some 'communists' at the start. But of course it would be laughable if, after all the effort PDX put into sandbox gameplay and dynamic civil wars a communist coup were still impossible. Sowjet intervention does make it a plausable secnario.

 

[Zoob]

The 1936 popular front in Spain was a political coalition formed to oppose the conservatives. The individual parties who were members of the coalition (and their ideologies) were:

• Spanish Socialist Workers' Party – Socialist
• Communist Party of Spain – Communist
• Workers' Party of Marxist Unification– Communist
• Republican Left – Republican
• Republican Union Party – Republican

That sounds pretty communist/socialist to me.

Source

Workers Party of Marxist Unifcation or POUM were anti soviet, and were killed for it.

 

[Esben_DRK]

The Republican government was a coalition government ranging from the centre all the way to the furthest (democratic) left, and continued to be this broad coalition for much of the civil war. While the coalition did turn more to the left during the course of the civil war, this seems to be more because of effects from the international system, where France and UK only allowed volunteers to go (And sometimes blocked support to the Republicans), and these volunteers were often centre-left, and because USSR provided more direct support.
To say that the Republicans were socialists, however, is wrong. The popular front was incredibly diverse, ranging from the nationalist movements of the Basque and Catalonian regions, the centrist republicans, socialdemocrats, communists and anarchists. To predict how this group would go had they won the civil war, seems to be incredibly difficult.
However, I do think we can make a reasonable guess that has gameplay effects.
- The Spanish Republicans did seem to go towards the 'side' (In ideological/geopolitical terms) that provided the largest and most consistent support. This may have been simple correlation, without any causation, but in gameplay terms it can be useful. If it's implemented so that support in civil wars will increase the power of your own faction in that country if they win, civil wars can become interesting even for people who are nominally on the same side.
Imagine if a multiplayer game with UK, Germany and USSR players. They have to respond to the Spanish Civil War, with Germany and USSR going the historical route with direct support.
The UK player, after a while, sees that the communists on the Republican side have gained enough power to make Spain communist after the civil war, will have to decide whether that can be allowed or, if not, what to do about it. The UK could then supply the Republicans in an effort to reverse the effects of the Soviet support.

One can dream...

 

[Evan05]

this is why i think there should be a second SCW if the nationalists fall. even potentially a resurgent nationalist uprising too to make a 2nd SCW a francoist-republican-rojo free for all. i really hope PDS does something like this because spain really could've been even more of a ideological shooting galley than it IRL was. and even the neutral faction could be occupied by a constitutional monarchy in the event of a truce between nationalists and democratic republicans.

I think the idea of a second Spanish Civil war between Democrats and Communists would be interesting alt history. HOI4 is big on possible alt-history.

 

[ramius3443]

I think the idea of a second Spanish Civil war between Democrats and Communists would be interesting alt history. HOI4 is big on possible alt-history.

It could certainly be fun. and the equally balanced chaos of a never ending civil war would give the region lasting flavor. Then again, assuming historically appropriate timelines, it would mean Spain would be in the middle of it's second civil war right when Germany is at it's peak strength. With all likelyhood the second civil war would be ended not by a decisive victory by either side, but rather by Panzers rolling through the streets.

 

[Lither]

Workers Party of Marxist Unifcation or POUM were anti soviet, and were killed for it.

Weren't that good a the whole unification thing I see

 

[IHateThisCo]

I do agree that calling all the republicans Communists in the same vein as Soviet Russia is a blatant error, but there are some facts that do need to be acknowledged: the Republican Coalition was mostly of the Left, and the hard left at that, with the major division being between the socialists and the anarchists, the international brigades were largely made up of those of Leftist political leanings, and while the Western Democracies did nothing but watch the Republic die (in some cases even blocking ships carrying supplies/troops/support because of "neutrality") the Soviet Union sent substantial quantieis of men, material, and commanders to bolster the Republican Cause (in exchange for all the gold). As the war continued, a large section of the Republican Front grew increasingly leftist/militant, at one point breaking out in some devastating fighting in Barcelona.

One can safely conclude that had the Republic survived the Civil War, its leaders would NEVER have alligned themselves with the Western Allies who left them to die. They would have been much more inclined to allign themselves towards the nation that had stood by them for as long as Madrid held firm. Thus, even if they wernt really communists on par with Stalin or Mao, they would most certainly have been members of the Soviet Comintern/Sphere.

Since the game makes it difficult for Democracies to join the Communist Faction and vice versa, the best way to simulate this is to just make them communists. And lets be real, they may not have been stalinists, but they were some pretty hardcore Marxists running much of the government

The question this brings to me is, what if, as one of the Western Allies, you actively help the Republic? Why should it not ally itself with you at that point.

 

[OBRkenobi]

Also, leftist does not equal Socialist.

But they WERE socialist.

 

[FOARP]

Workers Party of Marxist Unifcation or POUM were anti soviet, and were killed for it.

There's an argument as to whether Republican Spain was communist-dominated before the Barcelona coup, but after it, Republican Spain was dominated by the communists. The fact that the communists were able to have the Anarchists accused of being fascist sympathisers, and having their allies overseas parrot this propaganda, shows the extent to which Republican Spain was communist-dominated.

 

[soldierpat117]

imho the civil war is best represented this way, as the communist faction can consist of all the socialists, communists, and anarchists etc, just as the nationalist faction is generalized of being composed of falangists/fascists, nationalists, catholics/conservatives and monarchists.

 

[Thiomay]

If you isolated this problem from the rest of the game that would be an okay approach. But the ideologies in game aren't named: right, center, left or reactionary, liberal, socialist they are called: fascist, neutral, democratic, communist. So either they consitently turn all social democrats into communists (in which case the democratic faction needs an other name) or there should be a consistent line somewhere between anti-democratic stalinists and social democrats. The communist faction can't be a catch all term for all socialists and an opposite to the democratic faction at the same time.

So okay nationalist spain being 100% fascist is wrong for the same reasons. Maybe that's even the bigger issue. That doesn't make it right. Edit: What we saw in the video could still just be one possible outcome of the sandbox