The Republicans in Spain were not Communist

[Evan05]

Hello. So on Wednesday I watched the latest World War Wednesday video in which Daniel played single player as Japan, and when the Spanish civil war event triggered and Daniel clicked on Republican Spain, it showed the Republicans as Communist.

At 44:07 on the youtube video it is shown that the Republicans are Communist as far as the game is concerned:

The issue with labeling the Republicans as Communist is that while many of the armies and generals with the Republicans were Communist or at least left-wing, along with may of it's leaders, the faction itself did not have any goals of founding a Communist regime but merely keeping the Second Spanish Republic in power.

On the Wikipedia Page on the Republican Faction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_faction_(Spanish_Civil_War)

It is stated that "The Republican faction (Spanish: Bando republicano), also known as the Loyalist faction, was the side in the Spanish Civil War of 1936 to 1939 that supported the established government of the Second Spanish Republic against the Nationalist or rebel faction of the military rebellion." Along with Democratic and Communist forces, many Nationalist forces including Catalan and Basque separatist movements, anarchist fought with the Republicans. Hell so many prominent Communist politicans and generals were within the Republican's side somewhere that they were often called Los rojos (The reds), but the Communists weren't the only ones that made up the Republican military or government.

On the Wikipedia page on the Spanish civil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War#Republicans

It is stated that: "The Republic's supporters within Spain ranged from centrists who supported a moderately-capitalist liberal democracy to revolutionary anarchists who opposed the Republic but sided with it against the coup forces." The Republic was a Democratic faction that even many Communists opposed but simply fought for as the alternative (Fascist Spain) was much worse for them.

Also, the Soviet Union was not the only nation to support the Republicans. Mexico offered direct material aid, and the British and French followed a policy of "Other countries, such as Britain and France, operated an official policy of nonintervention, but "substantial unofficial aid flowed from France to the Loyalists".

While there was a very large base of Communist and Socialist supporters, the Republcians were ultimately a united faction on ideal of keeping the Second Spanish Republic in power and stopping the Fascists from taking power, not setting up a new Communist regime. That is why they should be Democratic and not Communist.

Tl;dr - Republicans should be Democratic, not Communist in HOI4

My solution: I think the best solution is to having the Republicans be Democrats until after the civil war. If they win the civil war, an event chain would fire that could end in multiple different ways including staying Democratic, turning Communist, facing a second civil war, etc.

This would allow for the most (plausible) alternate history, would add flavor, would be more fun, would make the implications of a Republican victory much more interesting, and would give the player mor choice for where to lead Spain.

 

[Sharp163]

They were socialist, which is why they were supported by the USSR

 

[Caesar15]

The USSR supported them, that's enough for them to be red ingame and thus be aligned to the communists.

 

[Evan05]

They were socialist, which is why they were supported by the USSR

The USSR supported them, that's enough for them to be red ingame and thus be aligned to the communists.

Mexico also supported them. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War#Mexico

Also: Other countries, such as Britain and France, operated an official policy of non-intervention, but "substantial unofficial aid flowed from France to the Loyalists. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War (at the end of the third paragraph).

 

[Evan05]

They were socialist, which is why they were supported by the USSR

Also, leftist does not equal Socialist.

 

[Sharp163]

Also, leftist does not equal Socialist.

The 1936 popular front in Spain was a political coalition formed to oppose the conservatives. The individual parties who were members of the coalition (and their ideologies) were:

• Spanish Socialist Workers' Party – Socialist
• Communist Party of Spain – Communist
• Workers' Party of Marxist Unification– Communist
• Republican Left – Republican
• Republican Union Party – Republican

That sounds pretty communist/socialist to me.

Source

 

[ramius3443]

I do agree that calling all the republicans Communists in the same vein as Soviet Russia is a blatant error, but there are some facts that do need to be acknowledged: the Republican Coalition was mostly of the Left, and the hard left at that, with the major division being between the socialists and the anarchists, the international brigades were largely made up of those of Leftist political leanings, and while the Western Democracies did nothing but watch the Republic die (in some cases even blocking ships carrying supplies/troops/support because of "neutrality") the Soviet Union sent substantial quantieis of men, material, and commanders to bolster the Republican Cause (in exchange for all the gold). As the war continued, a large section of the Republican Front grew increasingly leftist/militant, at one point breaking out in some devastating fighting in Barcelona.

One can safely conclude that had the Republic survived the Civil War, its leaders would NEVER have alligned themselves with the Western Allies who left them to die. They would have been much more inclined to allign themselves towards the nation that had stood by them for as long as Madrid held firm. Thus, even if they wernt really communists on par with Stalin or Mao, they would most certainly have been members of the Soviet Comintern/Sphere.

Since the game makes it difficult for Democracies to join the Communist Faction and vice versa, the best way to simulate this is to just make them communists. And lets be real, they may not have been stalinists, but they were some pretty hardcore Marxists running much of the government

 

[Shayson]

I think there's an argument to call them neither democratic nor communist, and absolutely not neutral or fascist. Thus, to me this is kind of like splitting hairs. The republican forces were an amalgam of ideologies, if I remember correctly. There were socialists, communists, democrats, anarchists, so on and so forth. They'd probably have been pretty staunchly neutral compared to nationalist Spain had they won the war, but they were supported by the Soviet Union (as mentioned previously), and in the end putting them in the communist camp seems like an acceptable compromise.

 

[Evan05]

The 1936 popular front in Spain was a political coalition formed to oppose the conservatives. The individual parties who were members of the coalition (and their ideologies) were:

• Spanish Socialist Workers' Party – Socialist
• Communist Party of Spain – Communist
• Workers' Party of Marxist Unification– Communist
• Republican Left – Republican
• Republican Union Party – Republican

That sounds pretty communist/socialist to me.

Source

As per your own source, the Popular Front was a coalition of Socialist and Communist parties to help contest the 1936 election. The Second Spanish Republic was democratic, with many socialist parties. That doesn't mean the actual government itself is a hard-liner communist regime.

There were also centrist, anarchist, and nationalist movements siding with the Republicans.

 

[ramius3443]

As per your own source, the Popular Front was a coalition of Socialist and Communist parties to help contest the 1936 election. The Second Spanish Republic was democratic, with many socialist parties. That doesn't mean the actual government itself is a hard-liner communist regime.

There were also centrist, anarchist, and nationalist movements siding with the Republicans.

I am 100% certain that there were no Nationalists fighting alongside the Republicans.

edit: in hindsight, I meant Spanish/Fascist nationalists, not the regional nationalists (ie Basque or Catalonian)

 

[Evan05]

I think there's an argument to call them neither democratic nor communist, and absolutely not neutral or fascist. Thus, to me this is kind of like splitting hairs. The republican forces were an amalgam of ideologies, if I remember correctly. There were socialists, communists, democrats, anarchists, so on and so forth. They'd probably have been pretty staunchly neutral compared to nationalist Spain had they won the war, but they were supported by the Soviet Union (as mentioned previously), and in the end putting them in the communist camp seems like an acceptable compromise.

I do agree that calling all the republicans Communists in the same vein as Soviet Russia is a blatant error, but there are some facts that do need to be acknowledged: the Republican Coalition was mostly of the Left, and the hard left at that, with the major division being between the socialists and the anarchists, the international brigades were largely made up of those of Leftist political leanings, and while the Western Democracies did nothing but watch the Republic die (in some cases even blocking ships carrying supplies/troops/support because of "neutrality") the Soviet Union sent substantial quantieis of men, material, and commanders to bolster the Republican Cause (in exchange for all the gold). As the war continued, a large section of the Republican Front grew increasingly leftist/militant, at one point breaking out in some devastating fighting in Barcelona.

One can safely conclude that had the Republic survived the Civil War, its leaders would NEVER have alligned themselves with the Western Allies who left them to die. They would have been much more inclined to allign themselves towards the nation that had stood by them for as long as Madrid held firm. Thus, even if they wernt really communists on par with Stalin or Mao, they would most certainly have been members of the Soviet Comintern/Sphere.

Since the game makes it difficult for Democracies to join the Communist Faction and vice versa, the best way to simulate this is to just make them communists. And lets be real, they may not have been stalinists, but they were some pretty hardcore Marxists running much of the government

Both of your posts make sense. I can see from both a gameplay perspective and from the historical perspective that the Western Allies left them for dead that they would align themselves with the USSR.

 

[Evan05]

I am 100% certain that there were no Nationalists fighting alongside the Republicans.

Nationalist Basque and Catalan movements were fighting with the Republicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_faction_(Spanish_Civil_War)#Nationalists

 

[GermanPower]

Notice something very very important here guys. The god damn flag. It's not the Spanish Flag used by the Republicans. I can only assume it had some coo or something. I wouldn't be surprised if this Spanish Republic won the war. Maybe there's a focus to go communism and get more help from the Soviets. You'll notice that Germany and Italy only gave one division. I bet this Communist Spain is getting a lot of support from the Soviets. HOI4 isn't a simulator of World War 2. It's a grand strategy game based in world war 2 and the events surrounding it with sufficient sandboxness for fun and unique playthroughs.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Using Lenin's repeatedly successful formula for hardline Soviet-style communists,

(Communists + Fellow Travelers) * Useful Idiots = Communism

 

[BBBD316]

This is the issue with the current political split, I understand why it is there, but now the anarchists will never win power.

 

[Lord Ammon]

This is the issue with the current political split, I understand why it is there, but now the anarchists will never win power.

They never will if Catalonia and the rest of the republicans have to fight separately against the Nationalists.

 

[Caesar15]

Just think of it like this, let's say they take away that and make them grey/neutral. So now Germany can gain a potential ally because Nationalist Spain is fascist, but the USSR can't because Republican Spain is neutral.

 

[Oriflamme]

I honestly can't imagine how the Spanish Civil War could be accurately represented in a video game. The Republicans weren't purely Communist, but the alliance in charge of the country was dominated by people like Largo Caballero who, if I remember correctly, would talk about his dreams of the coming revolution and would refer to himself as the "Spanish Lenin". It was only during the later stages of the war that Republican Spain became closely aligned with the Soviet Union, but even Stalin didn't want Spain to be a Communist state, because he wanted to unite the West against fascism. His fear was that a Communist Spain would unite the West with the fascists against the Soviets.

In the same vein, the Nationalists were not, strictly speaking, fascist. Sure, there were people in the Nationalist camp who wanted Spain to be a hardcore National Socialist state like Germany, but many of the original Nationalists were simply Catholic monarchists. I seem to remember reading about how Franco even had to purge his base of support to remove some of the more ardent fascists, so as not to alienate the more conservative factions.

This is all to say that there's bound to be abstractions in the game. You can't represent parliamentary republics in a video game too well because you have all the various political parties and their shifting alliances. Even single-party states are not represented perfectly because people in leadership are bound to have differing views on just about everything, even if they are in charge of the same party.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Civil Wars are rife with betrayal and suspicion for they are born in treasons. Your comment brings to mind an old board game of the multi-sided Russian Civil War where the players would have interests, forces and resources (some publicly known, some hidden) on both sides but only the Reds or Whites could win and you wanted to be at the top of the winning side. Pretty perfect subject matter for a hybrid war/political game.

 

[Lither]

Useful Idiots

Quite historically wrong, the phrase "useful idiots" was not associated with Lenin until 1984, and before then the phrase is only recorded as referring to Russian nihilists and potential communists in the context of McCarthy-style Red Scares.