The removal of the Expansion and Exploration CB's makes the game worse.

[TornadoWatch]

The removal of the Exploration and Expansion CB's, giving free expansion on Americans and Asians respectively, was a huge mistake for the game's playability as a colonizer.

When we play EU4, we are constantly making decisions and doing micro-actions. Building buildings, moving navies, taking events, utilizing estates, coring territory, dealing with rebels--All of this takes up precious time from the player. The micromanagement is part of the thrill of playing, however, at least for me. Seeing how much I can build up my nation, and how strong I can make it through effective micro.

The problem is, though, having to fabricate claims in nations across the world is not fun. It's not engaging. Having to fabricate a claim in someone as Portugal, wait for my diplomat to return, then declare war literally seems to take over a year, when before it was just a few simple button-presses and then I was back onto managing the aspects of the game I found enjoyable. It's beyond tedious. The old system, wherein you were able to just take land, was... Far more enjoyable. I have no idea why Paradox seems to think that allowing you to fabricate overseas was the solution; it's not enjoyable, it just adds unenjoyable micro to the game.

The old CB's were perfect, no one seemed to want their outright removal, and there was an easier fix. Allow people playing in Asian tech groups to declare war on Western nations with the expansion CB, and simply tune back the Exploration CB to the way it was, please. This is so miserable as it stands.

 

[Granathar]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-protectorate-institution-suggestions.987811/

We are not the only ones. Actually I agree that Expansion should be insta-CB against anyone from different tech group, just as Religious is for different religion. Expansion is actually pretty weak group of ideas, and I would change few things together with more general CB against different tech groups. Exploration should be insta CB against any primitives AND for god's sake they should make "reform goverment" for primitives ONLY under protectorate. Reform is cool, but it should be process that western power is willingly taking part in. Protectorate would be a mechanics to create a Colonial Nation POSSIBLY with western tech group (but it should be very rare thing that any non-player primitive is becoming western tech group even under player's protectorate - remember, they DIDN'T WANT european culture!) WITHOUT conquering. And how should it work? It should be dependent of colonial policy of nation too, giving bonuses or penalties. Native repression should give no bonuses for "civilizing" protectorate and it will be unlikely that they will ever become a CN under their overlord (so nations in mexico area are just shifting to for example French Mexico or something, or their provinces are just added to existing CN - they are "our people" now, and multiplying colonial nations is not really an objective), as they are just "worse kind of people". Trade should give small bonuses (French ideas too), and native assimilation policy should give a bigger chance of peaceful assimilation. Other protectorate ideas are in my topic above, but I very highly doubt that any dev will take it under consideration as they can't sell it as DLC because we have El Dorado and Conquest of Paradise already, and they don't care anymore because it will not bring easy sell-more-DLC money. They don't seem to pay attention to "sold" features, even if they are broken.

And now about Expansion idea:

Organized recruitment and improved shipyards are crappy placeholders giving actually nothing important. As long as recruitment time is not a factor in reinforcement time (so -10% of recruitment time also means +20% reinforcement/repair time be it navy or land army), then these bonuses are crappy-crap. So organized recruitment should rather give -10% maintenance (or regiment costs, but it may be a little OP) for land army, and improved shipyards should give +15% global ship repair, and then this idea group is pretty decent overall.

 

[darth254]

yeah, Expansion was somewhat shoddy before but now it feels like some sort of crap hybrid of Exploration and Trade, sprinkled in with some wtf weak sauce ideas like recruiting/building times. that finisher CB was one of the few redeeming qualities and now it's gone.

Expansion thematically should be about either 1) achieving a sprawling empire, or 2) maintaining a sprawling empire. I think the colonizing aspects are acceptable. The merchant/trade aspects....meh, I think +1 merchants fit the sprawling aspect but not so sure what +20% global trade power is doing there. +1 diplomatic relations is something I don't care for but I guess if you're expanding you may have more vassals or allies. Don't feel the recruitment/shipbuilding time ideas require explanation regarding their degree of suck. The -25% state maintenance despite being underwhelming is kind of more in-line with what I feel Expansion should be striving for, though maybe Expansion should have the bonus of getting additional states instead of Administrative. Militaristic expansion through Expansion is currently poo thanks to CB nerf.

Expansion along with Aristocratic seem to be the most bizarre collection of ideas...and they both could use re-evaluation.

 

[grommile]

We are not the only ones. Actually I agree that Expansion should be insta-CB against anyone from different tech group,

In that exact phrasing, you are saying "Expansion should give the Ottomans a CB against literally everyone".

 

[TornadoWatch]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-protectorate-institution-suggestions.987811/

We are not the only ones. Actually I agree that Expansion should be insta-CB against anyone from different tech group, just as Religious is for different religion. Expansion is actually pretty weak group of ideas, and I would change few things together with more general CB against different tech groups. Exploration should be insta CB against any primitives AND for god's sake they should make "reform goverment" for primitives ONLY under protectorate. Reform is cool, but it should be process that western power is willingly taking part in. Protectorate would be a mechanics to create a Colonial Nation POSSIBLY with western tech group (but it should be very rare thing that any non-player primitive is becoming western tech group even under player's protectorate - remember, they DIDN'T WANT european culture!) WITHOUT conquering. And how should it work? It should be dependent of colonial policy of nation too, giving bonuses or penalties. Native repression should give no bonuses for "civilizing" protectorate and it will be unlikely that they will ever become a CN under their overlord (so nations in mexico area are just shifting to for example French Mexico or something, or their provinces are just added to existing CN - they are "our people" now, and multiplying colonial nations is not really an objective), as they are just "worse kind of people". Trade should give small bonuses (French ideas too), and native assimilation policy should give a bigger chance of peaceful assimilation. Other protectorate ideas are in my topic above, but I very highly doubt that any dev will take it under consideration as they can't sell it as DLC because we have El Dorado and Conquest of Paradise already, and they don't care anymore because it will not bring easy sell-more-DLC money. They don't seem to pay attention to "sold" features, even if they are broken.

And now about Expansion idea:

Organized recruitment and improved shipyards are crappy placeholders giving actually nothing important. As long as recruitment time is not a factor in reinforcement time (so -10% of recruitment time also means +20% reinforcement/repair time be it navy or land army), then these bonuses are crappy-crap. So organized recruitment should rather give -10% maintenance (or regiment costs, but it may be a little OP) for land army, and improved shipyards should give +15% global ship repair, and then this idea group is pretty decent overall.

Completely correct assessment, thanks for your contribution.

 

[Granathar]

In that exact phrasing, you are saying "Expansion should give the Ottomans a CB against literally everyone".

Well, some more thoughts are needed here. Expansion CB should be earlier version of Imperialist CB. Imperialist CB is basically "I will conquer you, because I said so" and let's be honest - Expansion is idea group covering exactly same thing. Mongol empire did not conquer others because "they were from different culture or religion", they conquered them because chan said so and no really valid reason was needed for that - and everybody hated them for that reason. And actually Expansion CB SHOULD be an Imperialist CB but with 125% AE. We attack because we said so, but we better not use this CB too often, because it will mean problems. Nobody sane would use it in Europe in other place than eastern part of it. And maybe Ottos would get some coalitions from Asia if they would use it just like that. This CB would be something like "we are so big and powerful that we don't even fear coalition". Pretty nice CB to use when we have no reasons for example to attack some nations in Indonesia, but still useless in Europe due to AE.

The -25% state maintenance despite being underwhelming is kind of more in-line with what I feel Expansion should be striving for, though maybe Expansion should have the bonus of getting additional states instead of Administrative.

You are right. They should just switch these two. Expansion +5 states as we want to be bigger and Admin -25% state maintenance as we have better trained governors. +5 states is something I would REALLY love as Russia. In my last game 50% of siberia was only territory, because I just lacked state slots. For maintenance of states far from capital i build courthouses.

 

[lolada]

Exploration CB is not much of a problem - slows things a bit and requires extra minimal micro. Conquering those natives early is not much of a benefit anyway. No issues with that. Also they are very often allied, so you need to claim only one and you can eat a few nations. I don't mind having them on map for some time - before you could get that CB and very quickly wipe them all from the map.

Expansion CB loss is more troublesome for me - Expansion CB was very nice, shame to lose it. That group is crap now and its very hard to attack those nation without Imperialism. Requires some more works i guess, there is still a CB thats just harder to trigger...

 

[Republic of Mercury]

My only problem with needing to fabricate claims on American nations is when they take espionage ideas and do counter-espionage against me. I had to spend a few months firing and rehiring advisors to get a spymaster, because before my network-building speed against the inca was 0.12 a month. That's a locked-up diplomat for 14 years to make my next claim, if I hadn't had the dlc to fire advisors.

 

[ecrurudesby]

Going from three very potent CBs from idea groups to only one is not a good balance change.

Idea groups needed to be further balanced, not unbalanced.

 

[Granathar]

Going from three very potent CBs from idea groups to only one is not a good balance change.

Idea groups needed to be further balanced, not unbalanced.

If imperialist-like Expansion finisher is too good then Expansion should just give automatic CB (not claim ability) in all trade company regions. And Exploration should give CB against primitive heathens just like before. Of course natives reforming should be heavily nerfed, I wrote my propositions above (only nation under protectorate may reform). Of course institution spread from colonies / CNs / oversea territories / trade companies is a very different thing too. Right now Africa is celebrating arrival of white man, because white man brings free and fresh institutions that will now spread there faster than to Russia or Sweden which is of course absolutely ridiculous.

 

[resand]

Going from three very potent CBs from idea groups to only one is not a good balance change.

Idea groups needed to be further balanced, not unbalanced.

As I understood the last Dev diary the religious CB are probably getting a huge nerf next expansion. Since the first age is the only place Religious Rules are valid. Figures that includes the CB.

 

[ecrurudesby]

As I understood the last Dev diary the religious CB are probably getting a huge nerf next expansion. Since the first age is the only place Religious Rules are valid. Figures that includes the CB.

Good point I hadn't thought of that. Although I will hold off judgement until confirmation from the devs as I'd be surprised if Deus Vult was disabled in the second age.

 

[Granathar]

Actually it would be pretty good decision to nerf Deus Vult, but will it be replaced by something else in later ages? Or maybe whole idea groups will change with time?

 

[Bouchart]

Deus Vult or bust.

 

[romothecus]

I'm guessing that fabrication of claims will no longer be usable in later "ages" in upcoming patches. Probably replaced with something else, or possibly earlier imperialism. So I wouldn't expect the current status quo to remain.

 

[Benghi Bon]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-protectorate-institution-suggestions.987811/

We are not the only ones. Actually I agree that Expansion should be insta-CB against anyone from different tech group, just as Religious is for different religion. Expansion is actually pretty weak group of ideas, and I would change few things together with more general CB against different tech groups. Exploration should be insta CB against any primitives AND for god's sake they should make "reform goverment" for primitives ONLY under protectorate. Reform is cool, but it should be process that western power is willingly taking part in. Protectorate would be a mechanics to create a Colonial Nation POSSIBLY with western tech group (but it should be very rare thing that any non-player primitive is becoming western tech group even under player's protectorate - remember, they DIDN'T WANT european culture!) WITHOUT conquering. And how should it work? It should be dependent of colonial policy of nation too, giving bonuses or penalties. Native repression should give no bonuses for "civilizing" protectorate and it will be unlikely that they will ever become a CN under their overlord (so nations in mexico area are just shifting to for example French Mexico or something, or their provinces are just added to existing CN - they are "our people" now, and multiplying colonial nations is not really an objective), as they are just "worse kind of people". Trade should give small bonuses (French ideas too), and native assimilation policy should give a bigger chance of peaceful assimilation. Other protectorate ideas are in my topic above, but I very highly doubt that any dev will take it under consideration as they can't sell it as DLC because we have El Dorado and Conquest of Paradise already, and they don't care anymore because it will not bring easy sell-more-DLC money. They don't seem to pay attention to "sold" features, even if they are broken.

And now about Expansion idea:

Organized recruitment and improved shipyards are crappy placeholders giving actually nothing important. As long as recruitment time is not a factor in reinforcement time (so -10% of recruitment time also means +20% reinforcement/repair time be it navy or land army), then these bonuses are crappy-crap. So organized recruitment should rather give -10% maintenance (or regiment costs, but it may be a little OP) for land army, and improved shipyards should give +15% global ship repair, and then this idea group is pretty decent overall.

I am not a fan of your protectorate idea, as being a protectorate is a small pocket thing that prohibits you from ebing too large. There does, however, desperately need to be a way to modernize that doesn't just instantly get you on par with westerners and immune to the CB.

Your expansion idea is absolutely brilliant however. If the CB applied to everyone, that anyone could declare on anyone as long as they had a different tech group with this CB, it'd add so many different ways to expand cross-continent and add a lot of dynacism to global expansion, meaning Europe could not necessarily be the center for these things.

It'd however need some balancing and further thinking, if not outright scrapping - I hope people understand the point of my idea.

 

[durbal]

Insta-CBs ruin the diplomatic game and make everything much shallower IMO. I think Paradox sees things the same way. The Expansion and Exploration CBs do need a rework IMO still though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually it would be pretty good decision to nerf Deus Vult, but will it be replaced by something else in later ages? Or maybe whole idea groups will change with time?

Making the game more playable with alternative CB options is preferable to making the game less playable.

The more point restrained you make the game, the more skill equalization you get since you get bottlenecks on that rather than other resource management.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Insta-CBs ruin the diplomatic game and make everything much shallower IMO. I think Paradox sees things the same way. The Expansion and Exploration CBs do need a rework IMO still though.

I don't mind instant-cbs as long as harder-to-get ones are worth getting. For example: The amount of time and effort to justify and win a trade-war is no-where near made-up-for by the actual rewards for doing so. Hence why no-one ever does.

 

[Peachrocks]

Making the game more playable with alternative CB options is preferable to making the game less playable.

The more point restrained you make the game, the more skill equalization you get since you get bottlenecks on that rather than other resource management.

Yes but I think at this point, we all know how this is going to end. I'm amazed and almost grateful we've had the Religious CB as long as we've had it.

Though really, I don't like having to take Religious from a personal preference stand point well to use a Civ IV term 'This goes against everything we stand for'.