The Rebirth Western Roman Empire: Hail Imperator!

[panther-anthro]

Now, let us assume that before 1419, there was an insane pope by the name of Alexander Maximilian *his country is irrelevant* from any of the various countries, who managed to gain control of the Papacy. He was discontent with being merely, the pope and had dreams of grandeur, of rebuilding the greatest empire to ever grace Europe, to rebuild the 'Roman Empire. He of course respected his duties as pope, but he took another title upon himself "Imperator", this in effect makes him Emperor, now the Papal State was an inappropiate title, so there was only one valid title, that could be taken by such a ruler. The Western Roman Empire! In one great declaration, that shook Europe to it's very core, the Papal state took upon itself a new life, a life of an Empire long since dead. The Emperors of Byzantine were gravely insulted by the declaration of the rebirth of the Western Roman Empire, as they were only 'true' Roman Empire. But, they were still dealing with the turks, and this constant state of war, secured the independance of the western roman empire, while Europe descended into chaos, the Western Roman Empire had once again become a part of the world.

-I figure this would have happened only 20 years before the start of the game, and that Maximilian was relatively young for a pope!-

Now for all intents and purposes, the Emperor of the Western Roman Empire, IS the pope, this would also give further reason as to why Martin Luther would have greatly opposed the Catholic Church, as it now had an 'Emperor' as it's leader.

Reasons why I think this could be awesome: Huge number of possible events, and even possible events for the restoration of the Republic of Rome! Possiblity to 'form' the 'Roman Empire' after byzantium, and a huge number of territory is conquered. This is mainly a player nation, and is unlikely to do well at all without human control, but you have to remember something, Europe is disjointed, and the only direct opposition at this time period is the Bavarian Emperor, and a victorious Byzantium.

The main reason though is: Resurgence of Roman Culture

What I mean by this is, the cultural customs of the romans, experience a kind of renaissance starting in italy, and that after total conquest of Italy, could begin to spread to territories that were once part of the heartland of the Western Roman Empire, that is to say they'd become 'Roman' in culture. Now, this would not be an 'easy' process, and it'd only go faster in Italy, as the Italian citizens could once more rally behind a banner far greater then that of 'merely' Italy.

Off-Topic: Sure this idea, is insane, but it could turn out to be the most dynamic, and entertaining of ALL alternate nations, as it takes alternate to an entirely 'new level' for the mod. It's not that non-plausible, one really insane and successful pope taking advantage of the situation could've done just this, but I really have no clue what the starting cores of a 'WRE' would be.

 

[TC Pilot]

As much as we talked about this, I suggest that instead of creating a "Roman" nation from the start, there should be an event at the start of the game that allows the player to choose the path.

There's a certain plausibility, albiet rather stretched, of this happening without a "mad Pope." Suppose that in 1419 there's a sudden trend toward Papo-Caesarianism, either as the cause for or the reaction to the bitter rivalry between Rome and Bavaria. Ultimately, this tension could lead to a repudiation of Papal endorsement of lay control over the crown of the Holy Roman Emperor and some rather disjointed justifications (owing to the Pope's claim to being pontifex maximus of the Roman state and the fact that Julius Caesar was pontifex maximus) for claiming a renewed, Christian Roman Empire.

 

[Garbon]

Off-Topic: Sure this idea, is insane, but it could turn out to be the most dynamic, and entertaining of ALL alternate nations, as it takes alternate to an entirely 'new level' for the mod.

That's true, it takes the mod into utter fantasy.

Roman culture? :wacko:

 

[panther-anthro]

That's true, it takes the mod into utter fantasy.

Roman culture? :wacko:

Roman culture wasn't dead, it just lapsed, and morphed into 'other' cultures. Also, the mod is already utter fantasy XD! The main argument behind making it start as a WRE is that it can be okay with minor edits to the other files for religious events. Also, papal state is boring to play atm.

 

[unmerged(49695)]

you're insane! WRE doesnt stand a chance of being what it once was, and infact owning to the huge number of cores it must have, it would be an early target of wars

 

[Rhodz]

There's a major problem with this:

The culture of Aberration and Interregnum has always been to provide an alternative history with which to have fun. There's a difference between alternative history and pure fantasy. For example, if things had gone a little differently, like if Ariq Boke had defeated Kubilai Khan, something that's more than a little possible, things would have turned out quite differently than today.

Ressurecting the Roman Empire is nuts. The Byzantine Empire sticking around til 1419 is ok because they actually did that, it's just a question of how strong they are at game start. The Western Roman Empire had been dead for centuries, and their successors were the Holy Roman Emperors. Any Pope insane enough to proclaim himself emperor would have to deal with A: Much stronger nations like Bavaria And Byzantium being pissed off and knocking them down, B: leaders within the church horrified at the Pope, spiritual father of the church, turning himself into some kind of temporal dictator, and C: Cultural problems like Latin not being used as a language by the people anymore, and his Italian subjects perhaps drawn more to the Italian-speaking states of Genoa or Sicily than this strange new "Roman" state.

It just makes no sense. Sure, it would be cool to do, and have lots of events, but it would also be cool to create a state representing aliens that have invaded earth. It's still not realistic in an alternative history setting.

 

[unmerged(86600)]

I agree, this is nothing more than pure fantasy when one considers the timeline. To the arguments stated above I would add the fact that most of Europe would have simply not taken such a claim seriously. Not to mention the fact that Byzantium barely recognized Charlemagne a much stronger potential oponent.

However, this thing gives me an idea for a very interesting scenario. There was a so-called "Commune of Rome" (another word for Republic in this case) established from 1144 to roughly 1193. It managed to hold the city against several assaults by the deposed Popes and although it was captured after the Battle of Monte Porzio by Barbarossa (who was just dieing to control the Holy See better) he had to withdraw his forces due to malaria breaking out.

Now, let as assume that the Commune had been successfull in the last act and that the emperor was very badly beaten (even worse than by the Lombard League) or even killed and that this ensured the political survival of the Commune, who rushed to seize control of surrounding Papal lands, who were only too happy to comply with some form of protection vs the marauding and diseased (leaderless?) German soldiers. (One could even go as far to suggest that it hastened the fall of the Hofenstaufen dynasty or that later Barbarossa's son, Henry VI would meet his demise in 1204 due to his own stubborness concerning retreating which his father would have seemingly ironed into him after his Roman experience) One thing would lead to another and sure enough, with the necessary ups and downs, we would find ourselves in 1419, when instead of the Papal States you have a nominal Commune/Republic of "Rome".

To cut a long story short (no point in overdeveloping it right now with all the consequences for Italy, the countries beyond the Alps, the crusades or Byzantium's political and religious sphere, as it is only a suggestion) there are several possible alternatives for the survival and indeed, chance of regional preeminance which the Republic (it would have surely formaly changed its name to Republic as a way of legitimising itself, especially with new territorial aquisitions and what not). These could range from:

1. rekindled civic pride = an early form of the Hussite infantry in terms of fanaticism and/or Swiss/Flemish tactics to keep mounted noble armies at bay and the pope north of the Alps. The most radical option and politically intransigent.

2. the above plus a compromise with the new Pope, who accepts the fact that his temporal power is forever at an end. (medium)

3. the above plus VERY skillful maneuvering of the north and south Italian powers against each other as well as against the general power of the emperor.

This is just a general outline but it could be much further developed if there is the need.

 

[Rhodz]

While I like the idea of the Rome Commune coming into play at one point, I'd rather keep the current setup of the Papacy with all its events (I believe it has more events than any other major currently?) and perhaps put in a sequence dealing with a resurgent commune. The commune did come into play a few times throughout the centuries, and it would be interesting to provide events for conflict between the commune and the Pope, resulting in a showdown where one could go either way. But I do wish we would focus on developing states that only have one or two events rather than ones with heaps of them.

 

[Crookback]

Panther, as much as I admire your enthusiasm, some of your more 'grand' ideas are, at best, novel - at worst, completely ridiculous.

 

[panther-anthro]

Panther, as much as I admire your enthusiasm, some of your more 'grand' ideas are, at best, novel - at worst, completely ridiculous.

I never thought it'd get in. I ment for it to be insane. It comes with the enthusiasm, you should know that! Keeping all these ideas in my head, makes some of the more insane ones come out from time to time. Also, I don't see anything wrong with the way I made Saxony? Or even Poland.

 

[unmerged(116874)]

Roman Empire... You know, there still IS a Roman Empire on Interregnum, since the "Byzantine" Empire where know only as "Byzantine" 300 years after it's collapse.
Also, i see roman a culture - as the culture of the western roman empire before it's death - something totally dead, and being a total alien concept for the now italian, french, occitan, etc. peoples.
Also, if a WRE would really ascend, aren't they culture be simply italian?
Anyways, it's really insane.

 

[MattyG]

I have never in all my time with Interregnum (which is its entire life) seen an idea get shot down so conclusively and so swiftly.

I shall have to start an even crazier idea just to beat panther ...

 

[panther-anthro]

I have never in all my time with Interregnum (which is its entire life) seen an idea get shot down so conclusively and so swiftly.

I shall have to start an even crazier idea just to beat panther ...

Pfft, good luck, my idea was pretty darn crazy.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Now, let us assume that before 1419, there was an insane pope by the name of Alexander Maximilian *his country is irrelevant* from any of the various countries, who managed to gain control of the Papacy. He was discontent with being merely, the pope and had dreams of grandeur, of rebuilding the greatest empire to ever grace Europe, to rebuild the 'Roman Empire. He of course respected his duties as pope, but he took another title upon himself "Imperator", this in effect makes him Emperor, now the Papal State was an inappropiate title, so there was only one valid title, that could be taken by such a ruler. The Western Roman Empire! In one great declaration, that shook Europe to it's very core, the Papal state took upon itself a new life, a life of an Empire long since dead. The Emperors of Byzantine were gravely insulted by the declaration of the rebirth of the Western Roman Empire, as they were only 'true' Roman Empire. But, they were still dealing with the turks, and this constant state of war, secured the independance of the western roman empire, while Europe descended into chaos, the Western Roman Empire had once again become a part of the world.

-I figure this would have happened only 20 years before the start of the game, and that Maximilian was relatively young for a pope!-

Now for all intents and purposes, the Emperor of the Western Roman Empire, IS the pope, this would also give further reason as to why Martin Luther would have greatly opposed the Catholic Church, as it now had an 'Emperor' as it's leader.

Reasons why I think this could be awesome: Huge number of possible events, and even possible events for the restoration of the Republic of Rome! Possiblity to 'form' the 'Roman Empire' after byzantium, and a huge number of territory is conquered. This is mainly a player nation, and is unlikely to do well at all without human control, but you have to remember something, Europe is disjointed, and the only direct opposition at this time period is the Bavarian Emperor, and a victorious Byzantium.

The main reason though is: Resurgence of Roman Culture

What I mean by this is, the cultural customs of the romans, experience a kind of renaissance starting in italy, and that after total conquest of Italy, could begin to spread to territories that were once part of the heartland of the Western Roman Empire, that is to say they'd become 'Roman' in culture. Now, this would not be an 'easy' process, and it'd only go faster in Italy, as the Italian citizens could once more rally behind a banner far greater then that of 'merely' Italy.

Off-Topic: Sure this idea, is insane, but it could turn out to be the most dynamic, and entertaining of ALL alternate nations, as it takes alternate to an entirely 'new level' for the mod. It's not that non-plausible, one really insane and successful pope taking advantage of the situation could've done just this, but I really have no clue what the starting cores of a 'WRE' would be.

one problemo... there already IS a Western Roman Emperor.. that would be the HRE which since Charlemagne has been the successor state to the WRE. So this overly ambitious Pope would run afoul of a semi organized mob of Germans to his North that would coalesce into a unified army rather quickly upon hearing word of it.

 

[unmerged(86600)]

one problemo... there already IS a Western Roman Emperor.. that would be the HRE which since Charlemagne has been the successor state to the WRE. So this overly ambitious Pope would run afoul of a semi organized mob of Germans to his North that would coalesce into a unified army rather quickly upon hearing word of it.

The whole idea would've simply been laughable to the great powers and not even worth a military expedition, unless the German Emperor or some Italian power would use it as a pretext to restore a more down to earth pope and/or grab lands. Now, in the case of the old Commune of Rome, lots and lots more blood would've been shed, methinks.

 

[unmerged(116874)]

The Comuna di Roma is actually a good idea, as long as we have it only as events to the Papal States (or whorever owns Rome... y'know, i did saw it happen in this mod sometimes)

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I dont know, the idea dosent seem too radical - the resurjence of Romanesque culture that is. I mean the influences of classical culture (via Petrarch or Mirondella) could have been greater than in RL. Or we could have a radical republic under Savanrolla that actually succeeds (that is, he dosent throw himself into a burning pyre) and launches an early reformation from Florance, or better yet, Florance under the rule of the 10 manages to unify the Italian peninsula (You dont have a French invasion, or Spanish interferance - though one has Sicily, a possible German empire *though the Guelph-Guilibine conflict could be played upon, and Genoa of course as her main competitors), sort of along the lines envisioned by Machiavelli.

The Commune of Rome idea is also good, by di Roza I think - cant remember. But that would mean that the Papacy is firmly in Avignon.

 

[unmerged(86600)]

Hm, Savonarola and the Florentine Theocracy. Very interesting indeed. This, along with a resurgent Commune would spice up things in Italy for sure. (provided the player opts for it at the beginning of the game. By this I mean a series of events which could trigger gradually, depending on the first choice) The papacy needn't be in Avignon, because of a possible political consensus between the two rival factions.

And it would mean the end of that annoying Hansa presence in Italy - which never really serves them in any way whatsoever except dragging them into wars.

 

[MattyG]

Hm, Savonarola and the Florentine Theocracy. Very interesting indeed. This, along with a resurgent Commune would spice up things in Italy for sure. (provided the player opts for it at the beginning of the game. By this I mean a series of events which could trigger gradually, depending on the first choice) The papacy needn't be in Avignon, because of a possible political consensus between the two rival factions.

And it would mean the end of that annoying Hansa presence in Italy - which never really serves them in any way whatsoever except dragging them into wars.

The Hansa are out of Italy in Interregnum 2. They get porto in 1419 instead of Florence.

 

[unmerged(86600)]

The Hansa are out of Italy in Interregnum 2. They get porto in 1419 instead of Florence.

That's good news. And makes much more sense in any case.