The Random Campaign

[King John]

Ok, I've got another list of suggestions for cots in Europe: Sardinia still, cause it's a perfect spot. Bordeaux, to give Neustria, Ireland and the Moors something to fight over. It's Neustrian now, but it isn't a Neustrian core, and can easily switch hands any number of times between the three. Scane or Bohus for the third. Bohus is probably better because it's a capital, so whoever wants it will have to take a BB hit to get it, but Skane is a little more centrally located. And then Stuttgart and Karpatalja. And let the Samaria cot stay. That's six in total, including Samaria(I don't recall if it was agreed that that would remain already or not). Think that gives every country two or three cots to potentially fight over, except for Egypt. But Drake is uniquely situated to strike out at the Indian Ocean cots before anyone else, so it's probably about fair.

 

[Pepsi_max]

Eire and Egypt has no strategically significant advantage over any other nation.

I stopped reading here. If you don't understand that opened nation have a significant advantage over other ones (for example, egypt can expand into persia or even india without problem...while ingria can't).
The fact that you get explorers wont make a nation able to colonize. If you put colonist and explorers to austria it will still not be a naval power, you get it ? Same goes for United states baltic and Bremen here.


Eire being able to have more manpower than a land-locked country is far from balanced. The strengh of continental countries is to be able to rise more armies and have their own lands quite secured, while the one of naval powers is to be able to protect and conquer sea territories, thanks to the superior naval limit.

Now if a country can :
- Have more manpower than a land-country one, which is directly bordered by many other countries
- Have more naval limit, which will give him every time the upper hand over the colonies.
- Have much more money, even without the colonies.

This is absolutely not "random" or "balanced".

 

[admiral drake]

Ok, I've got another list of suggestions for cots in Europe: Sardinia still, cause it's a perfect spot. Bordeaux, to give Neustria, Ireland and the Moors something to fight over. It's Neustrian now, but it isn't a Neustrian core, and can easily switch hands any number of times between the three. Scane or Bohus for the third. Bohus is probably better because it's a capital, so whoever wants it will have to take a BB hit to get it, but Skane is a little more centrally located. And then Stuttgart and Karpatalja. And let the Samaria cot stay. That's six in total, including Samaria(I don't recall if it was agreed that that would remain already or not). Think that gives every country two or three cots to potentially fight over, except for Egypt. But Drake is uniquely situated to strike out at the Indian Ocean cots before anyone else, so it's probably about fair.

i have no intend on annexing timurids to expand in asia , its way to vurnerable since you can just kick me out of syria and cut me off

secund you should look at trade values to when assigning cots in europe, goods have been nerfed alot(wich wasnt needed as you killed protestant religion in my opinion)
and third i object about sicily being moved to sardinia if samara stays in & bordeaux is added, that feels a move just to iritate me when sicily is alot more viable tradewise & just as competitive as bordeaux or sardinia will be
and sicily is worth alot more then sardinia will likely become

 

[admiral drake]

you live in the passed pepsi,

a continental is perfectly capable of building a fleet and use it, there are no nelson or francis drakes in this game so there is no reason why a single navalpower can become all powerfull
if it does then its the fault from you & me to let it happend (and perhaps good play from the player) but not due the scenario itself altho there might be small advantages

the 5/5 rule alows even russia to build a proper fleet if he wants to (and has the tech for it) so there is no reason why we wouldnt be able to build 1 now

 

[Pepsi_max]

you live in the passed pepsi,

a continental is perfectly capable of building a fleet and use it, there are no nelson or francis drakes in this game so there is no reason why a single navalpower can become all powerfull
if it does then its the fault from you & me to let it happend (and perhaps good play from the player) but not due the scenario itself altho there might be small advantages

the 5/5 rule alows even russia to build a proper fleet if he wants to (and has the tech for it) so there is no reason why we wouldnt be able to build 1 now

Because he's surrounded by ennemies which are not going/are not forced to build any fleet ? Eire need a fleet to survive, Ingria doesn't.

 

[Aladar]

I don't really need a navy to survive down in my corner, but i'm pretty sure i'm going to build one anyway. I recon the same can be said for many other nations, who may not have "uber" high naval support.

 

[TC Pilot]

Pepsi, you really need to stop complaining every time you have a bad session. You have 3 times as many manus as anyone else, and they're FAA's so you can outtech just about anyone but maybe martin. You managed to become the largest country in a single session despite everyone else having a 7-year headstart on you, so of course you became a target. You can catch up the John's current navy in 6 years on your own, and you can both outproduce and outnumber John's navy with the help of any of your neighbors. Your 111 monarch only has another 4 years left, and his next monarch's going to be 333.

So if you're really concerned about Ireland's power, organize some coalition and smack him around a bit. Most of his provinces are same-culture anyway, and you have a land connection with England.

 

[Pepsi_max]

I'm complaning about game balance, not about having good or bad session which was quite obvious due to my neighbours and my shitty monarch. the fact that bremen, neustria and ingria are probably going to have a poor game looks obvious. And this is what i want to avoid.

 

[HALNY (HAL)]

Hm, I toke a look at stats and realised I am weakest, smallest and poorest nation... Seems my AI wars combined with constant lagging and drops was really bad...

Anyway, I wish You all guys a Happy Easter! Hallelujah!

 

[Mats_SX]

I stopped reading here. If you don't understand that opened nation have a significant advantage over other ones (for example, egypt can expand into persia or even india without problem...while ingria can't).
The fact that you get explorers wont make a nation able to colonize. If you put colonist and explorers to austria it will still not be a naval power, you get it ? Same goes for United states baltic and Bremen here.

Potential for naval power in this game depends on one thing and one thing alone: number of ports. (Not as in provinces, but base tax of course.) So if "Austria" wants to become a naval power, "Austria" only needs to make sure to conquer some ports. Now, there is no "Austria", but this applies to all nations. And every nation except Swiss started with one port. If they didn't pick cores in port provinces, or cultures including port provs, that's for them to take responsibility for. Everyone had the same chance, and still do. Just make sure to conquer ports.

Bremen has access to Denmark, which will give them the ports needed. USS has Baltic coast, and could easily go for Gotland and Swedish coast as well. They have ample opportunity for ports too. Neustria has potential ports on both sides of the English channel, Dutch ports, West coast of France, even southern France. It's pretty well spread out.

Eire being able to have more manpower than a land-locked country is far from balanced. The strengh of continental countries is to be able to rise more armies and have their own lands quite secured, while the one of naval powers is to be able to protect and conquer sea territories, thanks to the superior naval limit.

So stop being a land nation and go fight some winning wars taking some ports and become a naval power then. You have all the qualities needed. For example making the English channel purely Neustrian national waters would give you a good strategical touch.

Now if a country can :
- Have more manpower than a land-country one, which is directly bordered by many other countries
- Have more naval limit, which will give him every time the upper hand over the colonies.
- Have much more money, even without the colonies.

This is absolutely not "random" or "balanced".

Money is pretty evenly spread out this far, with the exception of Egypt which had all the CoTs spawn on him. Manpower is high all around because, as John explained, of our low Quality and low Centralization sliders. Surely you can understand that reason. Naval limit is this far pretty irrelevant. It will still be about 50-70 years before some nation will field a navy whose expansion is hindered by naval support alone. At that point, there will no doubt be many wars for ports going on.


Your complaints are in general uneducated. We have made a perimeter of super-expensive provinces to the East to disencourage expansion by Egypt/Roman Empire that way. Everyone were allowed to choose their cultures, cores and religions. You were just not there to make your opinion heard, and we can't be blamed for that. There is no observable disbalance this far in the game, except for the CoT spawnings. I'm not saying there will not become such elements, but after these three sessions we are all developing more or less evenly.

 

[bluelotus]

If I am to look forward to a poor game then I take all responsibility for it. Personally I think Ingria is in a good position for the things I have in mind for it.

 

[Pepsi_max]

Potential for naval power in this game depends on one thing and one thing alone: number of ports. (Not as in provinces, but base tax of course.) So if "Austria" wants to become a naval power, "Austria" only needs to make sure to conquer some ports. Now, there is no "Austria", but this applies to all nations. And every nation except Swiss started with one port. If they didn't pick cores in port provinces, or cultures including port provs, that's for them to take responsibility for. Everyone had the same chance, and still do. Just make sure to conquer ports.

Potential doesn't mean people will use it. People will use it if they need navy to survive or if they want to do colonial adventures. But there is high chances that if a country is very threatened in its own land, it wouldn't be able to build any proper navy, because he will need all his ressources to try to survive on its own land. Especially for Neustria which dont have non-vital provinces.

 

[admiral drake]

Potential doesn't mean people will use it. People will use it if they need navy to survive or if they want to do colonial adventures. But there is high chances that if a country is very threatened in its own land, it wouldn't be able to build any proper navy, because he will need all his ressources to try to survive on its own land. Especially for Neustria which dont have non-vital provinces.

didnt john offer to switch with you if he receives his fleet ? you could try that

 

[King John]

Actually, I think I could forego the fleet swap. For Ireland to lose its fleet is for Ireland to become indefensible, as Mats pointed out. I'd want to swap BB though. But if I do this, Pepsi needs to roll with it the next time things go bad, even if they go bad for an extended period, without passing judgment and looking for scapegoats right and left. Sometimes things just go bad, and that's part of the game. Somebody always has to experience a bad session in order for another to have a good one, and it goes back and forth, so for the continuance of the game we've all gotta be committed to being open to defeat and seeing salvage and recovery as just as much a part of the game's challenge as achieving victory in the first place.

In all historical games, there are countries that start out weaker than other ones. People often flock to these countries, such as NL, because they are interesting. They're challenging. But when somebody suffers a string of defeats and finds themself in a similarly weak position, the interesting part isn't there. Nor the inspiration to meet the new challenge. There's just a sense of loss. People need to let the failure flow through and out of them, let go of what was, and then embrace the new situation. That's the only way you can happily play through one of these campaigns.

 

[Pepsi_max]

That's a problem of balance between powers, and a swapping countries will not solve this. Cut Ireland/Egypt MP by 2/3 and most of the problems here will be solved. I will not change country because the near one is in a better situation, that's ridiculous.

 

[admiral drake]

That's a problem of balance between powers, and a swapping countries will not solve this. Cut Ireland/Egypt MP by 2/3 and most of the problems here will be solved. I will not change country because the near one is in a better situation, that's ridiculous.

if you stick with neustria then suck it up,
the concept of cutting anybodys manpower because he bothert to get a fleet/ports is the redicilous part

 

[King John]

I've already said I'm alright with having Ireland's MP and tax cut back to where it was at before the recent edits. I just want 25D per in comp, since everybody else has gotten the edits.

 

[Mats_SX]

I've already said I'm alright with having Ireland's MP and tax cut back to where it was at before the recent edits. I just want 25D per in comp, since everybody else has gotten the edits.

I object to this. I disagree that there exists an unbalanced situation. No edits need to be made.

On another note, as I said before I won't be able to participate in the upcoming session. Here are some general instructions for the potential sub:

- Don't wage any player wars if you can avoid it. Sign any NAPs you wish to.
- There is an in-discussion deal with Egypt concerning Rome. Drake can fill you in about it.
- Keep badboy under half of the limit at all times!
- Try to acquire Steiermark (goldmine) as soon as possible.
- Annex one-province nations only if badboy allows it.
- Try to save money and convert cheap provinces, preferably mountains.
- Build Small forts in mountains if money allows it.
- Move Offensive only.
- Tech land only, and stability if really necessary.

If no sub, I want the ghost to tech Land.

 

[TC Pilot]

The "imbalance," such as it is, is player-made. Some provinces are more valuable than others, and it just so happens John's the one who got his mits on them. Certain details, like geography, can't be changed, so it's up to the rest of you to correct those imbalances, as is the very point of playing the game.

Anyway, here are the edits that I'll need to do as far as I can remember them:
-Rearrange the COTs that appeared during the session to more approrpiate/competitive places.
-"Penalize" drake's LT for the benefits he accrued from all those COTs.
-I believe HAL also made some comment about his monarch being bugged?

I'm fairly busy this week, so I haven't thought too much about edits or the precise details. Am I forgetting anything major?

 

[Mats_SX]

Yes, Land sliders. As a reminder, I pointed that out in my AAR.