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grisamentum

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Playing as the Ottomans, you have numerous nation-specific Decisions that have serious effects on your nation. (By "Decision", with capitalization, I refer only to actual buttons from the "Missions and Decisions" tab, whereas by "decisions" without capitalization, I refer to the processes by which the player engages in various courses of action.)

Nation-specific Decisions are not a problem. Indeed the opposite: they are a great boon to making nations unique and interesting. For example, France's Edict of Nantes Decision allows it ride out the Protestant Reformation in (relative) comfort. Ultimately the player might or might not enact Revoke the Edict of Nantes, which makes for interesting emergent game-play (particularly when it converges with the religious_turmoil event series).

However, in certain cases the Decisions are either required, or completely Insane (by "Insane" I refer only to decision-making to reflect purely historical reality, vs. a "sane player" which, given all knowledge available to him/her, makes primarily decisions that are to the benefit of his nation). For example, as Japan, the player inevitably MUST enact Enforce Sakoku Law, or the player will be crippled by Christian rebels forever. (Although I have a serious beef with this Decision in that it does not appear as a major Decision in the tab, so novice Japan players might overlook it as an option. I certainly did.) In the Ottomans' case, you have "Adopt the Provincial Government System."

The problem with "Adopt the Provincial Government System" as a Decision is that 1) it sounds reasonable on its face (+1 revolt risk, +10% tax mod) but 2) once you know the events it enables, no sane player would ever enact this Decision. Fortunately I had the foresight/cynicism to read through the Events that are enabled by the Decision in question. In short, they are all bad (unless I am deeply mistaken, in which case I would be happy to consider the trade-offs).

As game design, this is pretty bad. Best case scenario, it means that the first time you play Ottomans, you might spend dozens of hours learning that the provincial bey system was a major cause of instability in the Ottoman Empire. Worst case scenario, it means that the player doesn't understand why these Events fire and becomes frustrated with the game. Following the best case scenario, a sane player never Adopt(s) the Provincial Government System ever and simply bypasses the entire problem. In reality this would have created other problems... which the game never raises.

Note that this is primarily an argument from the margins. Some national Events/Decisions are completely situational. But sometimes there are certain Decisions that are just Insane. There are probably other similar Decisions and I would be interested in hearing whether this is an Ottoman-specific problem.
 
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Pornek

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Are you planning on staying as Ottomans?

Im really considering to switch to Byzantium, as you can enact a decision for +5 basetax which stacks with the Otto +5 basetax decision.
 

Wardok

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I just tend to go with Everything and if Janissaries pop up i stomp them back into the ground.
 

grisamentum

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Are you planning on staying as Ottomans?

Im really considering to switch to Byzantium, as you can enact a decision for +5 basetax which stacks with the Otto +5 basetax decision.

It's too late for this particular Ottoman play-through, yes. I was primarily playing for the "Definitely the Sultan of Rum" achievement and seeing how far I could expand. Next time switching to Byzantium might be interesting.
 

Xara

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Yea, it's a horrible decision. I don't want +1 revolt risk from ANY decision, ever, much less one like this that leads to continual corrupt beys, revolts, and province maluses. At least you can end it after long enough.

Same thing with the Janissaries, although that seemed a bit buggy for me. I accepted the first event to recreate them, denied giving them anything else, and still got hit with the "decadence" event, which I thought was supposed to require having built them up at least 4 times. And though decadence happened, it didn't actually give any of the debuffs listed (tech cost, discipline loss) and I still have the first janissary bonus of 5% disc and whatnot.

Additional revolt risk is certainly not something I want on a far-flung empire, where my forcelimits are going to be eaten up by rebel-crushers if I have to have them
 

BBBD316

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It has not bothered me too much, generally cause for the murdered bey event I have been averaging 5 rebels per event which is just target practice.

I do feel that at times the information on what might happen is lacking, even westernisation has issues. The tooltip told me I needed to be next to a western province and have 3 stab, so I push through the balkans and get next to veince, Austria and use my points to get to 3 stab only for it then to tell me about having to fall behind on tech. Not happy.
 

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Good thread.

I find the whole system of hidden events to be horrible from a gameplay perspective.

It's not just Decisions. Idea Groups also bring with them their own Events. At least in the latter case this is hinted at by, well, a hint (loading screen.) I've never seen anywhere in the game that acknowledges that Decisions have hidden effects. They also have hidden impacts on other Decisions - for example not being able to enact Privateer if you've already enacted Piracy.

I feel strongly that every Decision, every Idea Group, every Idea (if they too impact events?), every Anything that impacts events and Decisions and anything else, should be required to detail those effects in its tooltip. If there's a space issue, then at the least it can give the name(s) of the event(s) that will now occur that wouldn't have otherwise, and let the player find these on the Wiki or google for references on the forums. At least then the newbie player knows there's some impact, and the more experienced player can work out exactly what impact.

It's entirely unacceptable for the game to basically require you to read through text files in order to feel that you understand the implications of your actions (or inactions.) At most, reading through game files should provide marginal benefit to the most dedicated of players. It shouldn't be almost a requirement for satisfying, logical gameplay.

I'm sure EU4 has come on a long way in interface terms, but I feel until the above is addressed (or even acknowledged would be nice) it still has a long way further to go. The frustrating thing is that it wouldn't even be that hard to fix, I'm sure - all the data is there in the files, it can't be that much work to have this read and dynamically used to update tooltips. It feels like the secrecy is intentional, and that I find difficult to understand; making the game harder by deliberately keeping information from the player is a poor excuse for balancing.
 

BBBD316

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I understand, but the amount of information that you would have to plow through to see each event from each idea tree would be a lot to digest.

Perhaps when you click on an idea to select it, it should provide some idea od the types of events you might get, but not actually say each one.
 

grisamentum

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I understand, but the amount of information that you would have to plow through to see each event from each idea tree would be a lot to digest.

Perhaps when you click on an idea to select it, it should provide some idea od the types of events you might get, but not actually say each one.

I agree. As TheBloke said, perhaps there should be some clues. Like maybe "This Decision will decentralize your nation, which make have serious consequences."

(Wait, isn't there an "Increase Decentralization" flag? This event doesn't cause that? What?)

It still leaves the problem of meta-knowledge: anyone who knows the actual consequences would never take the Decision (or for certain other nations, perhaps ALWAYS take some particular Decision).
 

vanzlmalc

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I also question this mystification of content idea. We get to choose between clearly visible options (-1 RR vs 10% manpower) but there are other, mystified effects. It's obviously intended design and event/decision texts hint to what those hidden effects might be:

"Appointing provincial governors, or 'Beys' can certainly improve administration of taxes and such but with less direct control over our provinces there is also the possibility of ambitious governors spending most of their time caught up in intrigues and internal feuds."

So the choice is not only -1 RR vs 10% manpower but also do you want your governors spending most of their time caught up in intrigues and internal feuds..

Maybe it would be better if the text had additional info so we know there will be stability issues when enacting this decision.
 
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Aethelred

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Good thread.

I find the whole system of hidden events to be horrible from a gameplay perspective.

It's not just Decisions. Idea Groups also bring with them their own Events. At least in the latter case this is hinted at by, well, a hint (loading screen.) I've never seen anywhere in the game that acknowledges that Decisions have hidden effects. They also have hidden impacts on other Decisions - for example not being able to enact Privateer if you've already enacted Piracy.

I feel strongly that every Decision, every Idea Group, every Idea (if they too impact events?), every Anything that impacts events and Decisions and anything else, should be required to detail those effects in its tooltip. If there's a space issue, then at the least it can give the name(s) of the event(s) that will now occur that wouldn't have otherwise, and let the player find these on the Wiki or google for references on the forums. At least then the newbie player knows there's some impact, and the more experienced player can work out exactly what impact.

It's entirely unacceptable for the game to basically require you to read through text files in order to feel that you understand the implications of your actions (or inactions.) At most, reading through game files should provide marginal benefit to the most dedicated of players. It shouldn't be almost a requirement for satisfying, logical gameplay.

I'm sure EU4 has come on a long way in interface terms, but I feel until the above is addressed (or even acknowledged would be nice) it still has a long way further to go. The frustrating thing is that it wouldn't even be that hard to fix, I'm sure - all the data is there in the files, it can't be that much work to have this read and dynamically used to update tooltips. It feels like the secrecy is intentional, and that I find difficult to understand; making the game harder by deliberately keeping information from the player is a poor excuse for balancing.

Seconded! I don't like the idea of expert-players, delving into the depths of the script-files, and casual players, who happily commit their blunders. I for one prefer to be a casual player, as stumbling into developments caused by decisions seems to be more fun.

However, in a future iteration of EU, I really hope that they get rid of the whole "scripted" events- and decisions-idea. It's high time that it gets replaced by a proper game-system to represent the much neglected "inner affairs" of our "countries". Not only would this allow us more freedom (there would be more options than A or B), but we would also adjust things because we have reason to do so (we decide when we have reason to make a decision based on a plan, anticipation or a perceived necessity - what could be more satisfying for a player?!), not because the game decides that an event triggers (the game decides when we have to make decisions, i.e. lets us choose between at least two predefined variable-changes).

Moreover, I guess that implementing a single system that is ideally flexible enough to encompass most kinds of "government"-forms would be much more efficient than scripting events for each country individually. Instead of scripting events and decisions, one would just have to make sure that the starting situation, i.e. the variables within the "inner affairs-game-system" are set in a plausible way. So, basically, the mechanisms and rules would apply for all countries in the same way (so you don't need to "learn the ropes" of your country by checking files), but you'd have to deal with different constellations of variables depending on the country you've chosen.

I want to my own "events and decisions" to emerge in my games, depending on how I've been steering my country so far, not just have a historical event pop up from some kind of parallell "real" world (even though there is at least a plausibility-check (i.e. conditions) in oder not to make things too strange). For this, we simply need a DYNAMIC system. Mechanisms and "rules", a game within the game, not events. As it is now, we only have dynamical systems on the "international" sphere (diplomacy, war, trade, colonies). These aspects need an "internal" counter-weight, something to keep us from maximising/power-gaming our countries to fit the international competition. And I don't even speak of how much immersion a more detailed representation of countries would bring. On the international sphere, most countries play the same - it's the inner affairs, the inner structures where the flavour is at. And these structures are represented but in a very rudimentary way in EU. They're only present in so far as they influence the "international" aspects. They are not given a place of their own.

In my signature ("brainstorm") I've tried imagine what such a system could look like:

centralise-able elites (think: high aristocracy, high bureaucrats), and non-centralise-able elites (think: parliaments),
both elites have interests,
there is a power-balance between the elites (determined by rank of "noblemen"-agents),
"court power" as a means to centralise the elite and to shift the powerbalance between the elites,
quality of your personel depends on your management of centralise-able elites (and their interests)



It's perhaps too complex/not abstract enough, I agree, but then again I'm not a game designer!
 
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grommile

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You do realize that the more complexity you push into a game like this, the easier it becomes to beat the AI, right?
 

Aethelred

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I'm not sure about that reality of yours. Perhaps if there is enough complexity, then there are no better and no worse options, just alternative ones? I don't think it's as easy as that. For an example: do you want to win the war by fostering a very very talented lowborn general at the cost of setting up all the other nobles of higher rank at your court who feel unjustly overlooked? Perhaps you can appease them with other favours, but this will have consequences. Or do you provide those high nobles with the task of the general (nobles of which faction, that is?) and risk loosing the war? Even a human would have a hard time to decide if there are so many uncertainties and so many interests involved. So a human can't really make a "better" decision than the AI? An still, every decision has its specific consequences.
 
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grommile

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There are always better choices. Humans will find them; the AI will not.
 

Aethelred

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Well that's your conviction, I have mine. ;) I also see, however, that there's hardly any game out there that attempts to be complex enough for options to become a dilemma for the player rather than just the "obvious click". Of course one would also have to build uncertainties into decisions. Will I really loose the war because of that general? How upset will my nobles be? etc.
 

zodium

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Well that's your conviction, I have mine. ;)

It's not a matter of conviction. It's a mathematical fact that as a system's level of complexity increases, the computational demands imposed on an AI navigating that system also increases. More complex mechanics = less competent AI.
 

Aethelred

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Well but also the computational demands on the player increase? Especially if the outcomes of my (super-genious) human calculations also depend on the reactions and actions of other (AI) agents, which, in turn, are but probabilities (and may lie in the future, i.e. are not immediatly conceiveable at the time of the decision itself)... isn't there a point at which the demands of precalculation and anticipation exceed even our human computational capabilities (as players, not as mathematicians)? Well, sure, you could still end up (after an hour of calculation) with the insight that option A has a 1% better chance not to cause the outbreak of some catastrophy (a different catastrophy than option B). Well then, but still there is a chance that it goes wrong. And if the chances of A and B going wrong are pretty equal, I think we have an interesting decision/dilemma.

So the idea is not to make the AI capable of dealing with a complex environment, the idea is to make the environment so complex that even a player will have troubles to deal with it, which will make him more on par with the AI. Of course, some kind of player-advantage is always there, in every single player game as game-mechanisms must leave some room for the player to experience successes (beating the game).
 
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TheBloke

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I also question this mystification of content idea. We get to choose between clearly visible options (-1 RR vs 10% manpower) but there are other, mystified effects.

This is a very salient point. In most regards, the UI is absolutely explicit in the effects of actions. We are told in cold, hard numbers exactly what something does. Ditto in diplomacy, we know for certain if another nation will accept or not, and again this is based on calculations with hard numbers that are fully visible (the occasional bug notwithstanding.)

It's therefore slightly odd that along with this clear, precise reporting of impact, there's a whole other side to the game where effects are only hinted at in the vaguest terms, or often simply not mentioned anywhere at all.

It's obviously intended design and event/decision texts hint to what those hidden effects might be:

"Appointing provincial governors, or 'Beys' can certainly improve administration of taxes and such but with less direct control over our provinces there is also the possibility of ambitious governors spending most of their time caught up in intrigues and internal feuds."

So the choice is not only -1 RR vs 10% manpower but also do you want your governors spending most of their time caught up in intrigues and internal feuds..

Maybe it would be better if the text had additional info so we know there will be stability issues when enacting this decision.

Yeah true in this case, it does at least hint at the ramifications. But there are many cases where not even that happens.

I find it odd, and can't work out if it's deliberate due to wanting to keep things secret, or deliberate due to thinking there won't be enough space in the UI, or simply not implemented due to lack of time/resources.

In any scenario, I think it should be a high priority for the UI to address this. It was a stated goal of EU4 to make it more accessible and newbie-friendly, and in many places they've succeeded. But there are still areas needing a lot more work.
 

grommile

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Humans are generally much better than computer programs that run acceptably on desktop PCs at pruning decision trees.
 

zodium

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Well but also the computational demands on the player increase? Especially if the outcomes of my (super-genious) human calculations also depend on the reactions and actions of other (AI) agents, which, in turn, are but probabilities (and may lie in the future, i.e. are not immediatly conceiveable at the time of the decision itself)... isn't there a point at which the demands of precalculation and anticipation exceed even our human computational capabilities (as players, not as mathematicians)? Well, sure, you could still end up (after an hour of calculation) with the insight that option A has a 1% better chance not to cause the outbreak of some catastrophy (a different catastrophy than option B). Well then, but still there is a chance that it goes wrong. And if the chances of A and B going wrong are pretty equal, I think we have an interesting decision/dilemma.

So the idea is not to make the AI capable of dealing with a complex environment, the idea is to make the environment so complex that even a player will have troubles to deal with it, which will make him more on par with the AI. Of course, some kind of player-advantage is always there, in every single player game as game-mechanisms must leave some room for the player to experience successes (beating the game).

Without getting into the fundamental difference between AI and human decision making methods yet again, no. The simplest reason for this, if we accept at face value that we can speak of human "computational demands," is that humans have a literal I-Win Button called the space bar, which enables a cheat that gives them infinite time to process. They also get to use a whole brain, whereas AI players are forced to to share a desktop PC with about 250 other AI players. It's quite unfair, really, the deck is just stacked against the poor AIs in every way. :(