The Provinces! (Scandinavia)

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Vandelay
Bornholm is probably to small to be included in Denmark, which is too bad because the Arrchbishop of Lund´s castle there, Hammershus, was one of the biggest castles in medieval Scandinavia. Very cool ruin - go visit!

Well, I would love to see Bornholm included as a province ( and I think it was independant at least part of the timeframe of CK)

But if it its not then could it PLEASE be a part of either Sealand or Skåne and not Pommern as in EU II( )

And I can only say you should all visit Hammershus!! Its a great place( and I can always tell you of other places to go... )

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Yes, of course Bornholm should be a province of its own..

 

[unmerged(2695)]

The number of provinces depends on the map scale. A big map makes for more provinces. But as they are used for movement purposes provinces ought to be more or less the same size.

The basic Mediaeval division of Norway was into the Uplands, the Sea-lands and the Northlands, with the Sea-lands divided into the three lands of Viken, Gula and Trøndelag. The Northlands were divided into the inhabited coastal Hålogaland (up to Salangen at 70 deg N) and the Finnmark (or Lapland) of the Saami inland. The Finnmark should definitely be a no-mans land that can be colonized. A possible Norwegian province of Finnmark should be the coastal island part only.


My sub-division of these lands is as follows:

Hålogaland:
Senja (= Senjens fogderi)
Lofoten, Vestrålen and Ofoten
Helgeland and Salten
Namdalen

Frostating (Trøndelag):
Namdalen
Inner Trøndelag
Outer Trøndelag
Romsdalen and Nordmøre

Gulating (Western Norway):
Sunnmøre
Fjordane
Sogn
Hordaland
Rogaland
Agder-Setesdalen
Valdres-Hallingdal

Borgarting/Viken (Oslofjord region):
Telemark-Bamle
Vestfold
Eiker, Ringerike and Numedal (=modern lower Buskerud)
Aker
Follo
Vingulmork (Østfold)
Ranrike (Bohuslän)

Eidsivating/Opplandene (Inland Southern Norway)
Romerike
Hadeland-Toten-Gudbrandsdalen (Western Upland)
Heidmork-Østerdalen (Eastern Upland)

Jämtland

This gives 26 provinces - rather more than Havard's 17. The inland and northern ones, however,could be "colonies" or even possible wilderness areas (forests) that can be settled in the game.

"Finnmark" really should be a terra nullius. Lapland between Salangen, the Gulf of Bothnia and the White Sea could be divided into four

 

[Aetius]

how large is the population in these 26 provinces in Norway in 1066? Harvards list of 17 provinces in Sweden is probably more than required since most of northern Sweden had very low populations, maybe just a couple of thousand in each.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by Aetius
how large is the population in these 26 provinces in Norway in 1066? Harvards list of 17 provinces in Sweden is probably more than required since most of northern Sweden had very low populations, maybe just a couple of thousand in each.

What is the importance of population?..If that would be the important factor both England and Scandinavia could have only a few provinces while the Middle-East would be split by several hundred ones..
IMO population in 1066 is not that important..

 

[Norgesvenn]

One of the reasons behind Norwegian expansion to the west, was that the land just couldn't support the number of people living in Norway.

It has been estimated that as many is 1.5 million people lived in Norway when the plague set in in 1349. This estimate may be waaaay too high, though. Thing is, Norway wasn't as sparsely populated in those days as in the beginning of EU II.

 

[Aetius]

1.5 million seems a lot... The fishing must have been very good...

 

[unmerged(8303)]

Shouldn't provinces be placed around areas of autonomy? Such as an important city or such. like the area around Stockholm and Jamtland ( playable or not..). Population is so unbalancing in that some areas are so sparse yet some are so dense! I am no expert on Scanadanavia, but maybe each signifigant city and its surrounding territory should be one in its own. Good luck my friends. I just found this forum and I don't know what this is but you're welcome for my help.

-Pinochet has landed-

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by Aetius
1.5 million seems a lot... The fishing must have been very good...

This is a common misunderstanding..the fishing was not that important before the small "iceage" in the 14th century. The north of Norway relied on farming in early middle ages..
The land wasn´t "the barren waste" that it became later, after the Black Death and the climatechanges

 

[unmerged(8303)]

a common mistake. It is good that Wasa and I are here to enlighten the masses. On a different note, however, Exactly WHO owns Stockholm? Burger jarl is dead already, I assume.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by jaronpinochet
a common mistake. It is good that Wasa and I are here to enlighten the masses. On a different note, however, Exactly WHO owns Stockholm? Burger jarl is dead already, I assume.

Stockholm is not founded yet..In 1066 it would be Sigtuna as "capital" of the province of Uppland .. ..as for enlightment, my visions is soon to be quite limited..it is midsummers eve in Sweden today, the closest we have to your "4th of July" celebrations..

 

[unmerged(8303)]

Ah ha ha. Lucidor told me all about that in the IRC room. Have fun. I was under the impression Stockholm was founded in the late 10th century but I am obviously wrong. Another game to teach me about history in areas of the world that I would not otherwise care about

 

[Aetius]

The oldest records are from 1252, the earlier records were destroyed in a fire 300 years ago. So no one knows when it was founded.

 

[Galleblære]

Regarding number of provinces in Scandinavia, I realize the reason to have a few, poor provinces in Norway in EU2 was to balance both game and historic purposes, but considering that in the era CK takes place, Norway was arguably the most powerful scandinavian nation, the Norwegian provinces should be beefed up and quite a few added, so that we dont get the EU2 situation.

Also, how about the islands Norway held? Faroe Islands, Scottish Islands, Isle of Man etc, will they be on the map? Considering this is Europe only, and therefore probably even more detailed..why not?

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Galleblære
Also, how about the islands Norway held? Faroe Islands, Scottish Islands, Isle of Man etc, will they be on the map? Considering this is Europe only, and therefore probably even more detailed..why not?

If the Faroe Islands are added and Bornholm is not I will not be happy!

EDIT: added the 'not' I foolishly managed to forget sendning the wrong message...

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Galleblære
but considering that in the era CK takes place, Norway was arguably the most powerful scandinavian nation, the Norwegian provinces should be beefed up and quite a few added, so that we dont get the EU2 situation.

Now that I doubt. Anything to back that statement up with? As far as I know the danes were the most powerful nation and continued to be that until the swedes took over the position.

 

[kurtbrian]

that was my impression too.

but I could be misguided by our national historians, however!

 

[The Danish King]

Norway was powerfull in the pre-1066, not post-1066.

So was Denmark, by the way. (In the pre-1066 and post-1066)

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by The Danish King
Norway was powerfull in the pre-1066, not post-1066.

So was Denmark, by the way. (In the pre-1066 and post-1066)

Agreed. Although I would agree on the fact that Norway was much more important before the 13th century. Perhaps Håvard could provide us with some input?

 

[Norgesvenn]

Originally posted by The Danish King
Norway was powerfull in the pre-1066, not post-1066.

So was Denmark, by the way. (In the pre-1066 and post-1066)

Bah! You're just jealous because your vikings wore dresses...

Norway's peak of power was in the mid-13th century when the Norwegian king controlled:
- Greenland
- Norway proper (including Båhuslen and Jamtaland)
- Iceland
- "The Isles" (Faeroes, Orkneys... etc.)

Norway was through its civil wars by 1202, and the crown consolidated its power.

Granted, Denmark was most probably slightly more powerful than her neighbours at times during this period, but that beside point.

If CK is to model history, then do it right.