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Idiotboy

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Originally posted by Fate
How about some new islands?
At the very least there should be the islands of Lesbos, Chios, Euboea, Cerigo, Naxos, and maybe Cephalonia.


Eh I don´t think that would be such a good idea. If one looks at a map one quickly discovers that they are extremely small and hardly would support the strucyure of a "duchy" or the equivalent. In fact I would do away with Rhodes as well since It was merely a part of the theme of Cibyrrhaeots IIRC and quite insignificant. Of course this makes a problem with the upcoming knightly crusader orders a problem so my guess is that they keep that one.
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by Fate


Euboea is is pretty big, and Lesbos / Chios are just as large, if not more so in comparsion to Corfu.

Chios and Lesbos would be important since it would allow the Genose to expand into the area properly.

Still falls under size problem. They are to small. I would say that if (and thats a big if) you are able to to hold part of a prov they could be used I suppose but if not I would say no to them. Of course the ones to lobby would be Sergei and gang.:D

Also about Corfu being in EU2 I would say that quite a few things about the EU map was a bit suspect. However they made it due to gameplay reasons I suppose.
 

Havard

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Originally posted by Idiotboy


Eh I don´t think that would be such a good idea. If one looks at a map one quickly discovers that they are extremely small and hardly would support the strucyure of a "duchy" or the equivalent.
Both Naxos and Cephalonia were Duchies within the CK period though ;)

And provinces are counties, not duchies...
 

gweinel

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Originally posted by Idiotboy


Still falls under size problem. They are to small. I would say that if (and thats a big if) you are able to to hold part of a prov they could be used I suppose but if not I would say no to them. Of course the ones to lobby would be Sergei and gang.:D

Also about Corfu being in EU2 I would say that quite a few things about the EU map was a bit suspect. However they made it due to gameplay reasons I suppose.

Another question: The size is that matters for a province, or the importancy of a place (as in real life).
For instance Thessaloniki: For many years almost all of Macedonia was under the one or the other control, but Thessaloniki was still under Byzantine rule. Even in EU2 at 1419 Thessaloniki is still Byzantine city. I think that great cities, like Constantinopole, Thessaloniki, Venice, Genoa and others should have it's own province: the city and small area around it.
So, if an island or a city is really important (and ithink Lesbos and Chios are important and both islands could consist a province since their history is alike) then they deserve a provivince.

Konstantine
 

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Originally posted by Idiotboy


..........

Also about Corfu being in EU2 I would say that quite a few things about the EU map was a bit suspect. However they made it due to gameplay reasons I suppose.

Yes, I can see why Corfu would be in the game it was a very important island during this period of history. Almost everybody who had any ideas about taking a crack at Byzantium took Corfu as a first step. It was almost as strategically important as Malta.:)
 

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@camel

the discussion wasn't to lobby for more islands but to see which were included and how - for example, if crete were divided, into how many if it were, what the city names were, etc.

beyond that i know it's too late to change it, i wanted to know what was there, that's all.

@idiotboy

the argument was never to go by theme borders exclusively as that would bugger later turkish and latin provinces.

@fate

euboea and naxos wouldn't be new, they're already together in eu's "ionia", but they should be separated. as far as what greek islands need to be in the game, i'd say cyprus, crete, corfu, rhodes (for the hospitallers), euboea (for negroponte), and a bunch of little islands to be lumped together for the theme of the aegean later to become the duchy of the archipelago. the others are really just icing on the cake. the genoese expansion can be simulated by events, as control over certain parts of certain islands gave them more influence in trade. cephalonia was separate, but under the suzerainty of the principality of achaia, so can be regarded as superfluous, where the other vassals of achaia (athens and the archipelago) play a bigger role in history.

one would definitely need more islands in hoi, however.

@gweinel

you could easily simulate the same thing by giving the turks ownership of "macedonia", but the byzantines control in the scenario setup. they wouldn't be at war and (i think) the turks can still march right through it if they want...

steph
 

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Originally posted by Sonny


Yes, I can see why Corfu would be in the game it was a very important island during this period of history. Almost everybody who had any ideas about taking a crack at Byzantium took Corfu as a first step. It was almost as strategically important as Malta.:)

:confused:

most attacks on byzantium came from the north (huns, avars, serbs, bulgars, later ottomans, etc.) or the east (persians, turkish emirates, early ottomans, catalans, etc.).
 

gweinel

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Originally posted by stephanos
[B@gweinel

you could easily simulate the same thing by giving the turks ownership of "macedonia", but the byzantines control in the scenario setup. they wouldn't be at war and (i think) the turks can still march right through it if they want...

steph [/B]

I will not disagree, but my point isn't this. I agree with the decision to put all Macedonia in the hands of Turks. But if anyone study the history maps of the area will find out that this wasn't the first time that all Macedonia was conquered except Thessaloniki as the time of the Ducan or the various invaders of the north (Slavs, Bulgars etc.)

Konstantine
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by Havard

Both Naxos and Cephalonia were Duchies within the CK period though ;)

And provinces are counties, not duchies...

Whatever. I use the word duchies loosely as an indicator of the area required for the province size needed to keep that kind of administration among other things.
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by stephanos


:confused:

most attacks on byzantium came from the north (huns, avars, serbs, bulgars, later ottomans, etc.) or the east (persians, turkish emirates, early ottomans, catalans, etc.).

Well at least I was talking about the EU2 time period.
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by gweinel


Another question: The size is that matters for a province, or the importancy of a place (as in real life).
For instance Thessaloniki: For many years almost all of Macedonia was under the one or the other control, but Thessaloniki was still under Byzantine rule. Even in EU2 at 1419 Thessaloniki is still Byzantine city. I think that great cities, like Constantinopole, Thessaloniki, Venice, Genoa and others should have it's own province: the city and small area around it.
So, if an island or a city is really important (and ithink Lesbos and Chios are important and both islands could consist a province since their history is alike) then they deserve a provivince.

Konstantine

I agree on the principle that large and important cities should be own entities. On the importance of the small islands I do not.
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by The camel
Isnt this discussion a bit pointless? Sergei has stated that the map is finished, and that the job included in that is so large that it wont be redone :D

Are u ill or something? Now is when the real discussion starts. :D
 

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Originally posted by stephanos


:confused:

most attacks on byzantium came from the north (huns, avars, serbs, bulgars, later ottomans, etc.) or the east (persians, turkish emirates, early ottomans, catalans, etc.).

Ah, you are right. I was only considering the playable states. What I meant was many western attempts to attack the Byzantines came through Corfu. :eek: