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first, an apology: i posted this information in the modern day scenario forum, and before that in the age of nationalism, i think. it has to do with the EUII province erroneously labeled 'ionia'; i didn't want to see the same mistake end up in CK, but if the map's already made, i'm sorry- i just never thought to post this here. anyway, 'ionia' only refers to one thing: the west coast of turkey, south of 'aeolia' and north of 'doria'. what you are calling 'ionia' in EUII are actually euboea, the sporades, and the cyclades. in the byzantine era, these were included in the thema of 'hellas'; after the fourth crusade 'hellas' was split into the duchy of athens, negroponte (euboea), and the duchy of archipelago (the other islands); all of which were nominally a part of the principality of achaea, but as we know, athens eventually became florentine, and the others venetian.

on a side note, i was hoping you could include more ionian islands than just corfu; but if not, then at the very least corfu should be called 'kerkyra' and it's capital 'palaiokastritsa'.

steph
 

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We don't know if the map is done yet, but I doubt it is completely set in stone as CK is still early in development. Province names can definitely not be finalized yet...

As for the rest of the Byzantina area, how would you suggest a province partition? Along the old themes?
 

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Originally posted by stephanos
first, an apology: i posted this information in the modern day scenario forum, and before that in the age of nationalism, i think. it has to do with the EUII province erroneously labeled 'ionia'; i didn't want to see the same mistake end up in CK, but if the map's already made, i'm sorry- i just never thought to post this here. anyway, 'ionia' only refers to one thing: the west coast of turkey, south of 'aeolia' and north of 'doria'. what you are calling 'ionia' in EUII are actually euboea, the sporades, and the cyclades. in the byzantine era, these were included in the thema of 'hellas'; after the fourth crusade 'hellas' was split into the duchy of athens, negroponte (euboea), and the duchy of archipelago (the other islands); all of which were nominally a part of the principality of achaea, but as we know, athens eventually became florentine, and the others venetian.

on a side note, i was hoping you could include more ionian islands than just corfu; but if not, then at the very least corfu should be called 'kerkyra' and it's capital 'palaiokastritsa'.

steph

In Byzantine times, the Aegean Islands were included in the Theme of Samos and the Theme of the Aegean Islands. The Theme of Hellas was cofined to the mainland with the exception of Euboia.

Tsk, tsk, a Greek like you using Latin forms for Greek names instead of direct transliteration! ;) :)
 

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Originally posted by stephanos


on a side note, i was hoping you could include more ionian islands than just corfu; but if not, then at the very least corfu should be called 'kerkyra' and it's capital 'palaiokastritsa'.

steph

Palaiokastritsa! Are you sure? Never heard of Palaiokastritsa as capital of anything? Surely Corfu or Kassiopi as major forts would be "capital" of Corfu
 

unmerged(8523)

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Originally posted by Havard
We don't know if the map is done yet, but I doubt it is completely set in stone as CK is still early in development. Province names can definitely not be finalized yet...

As for the rest of the Byzantina area, how would you suggest a province partition? Along the old themes?

hey, thanks for the info :) i read somewhere that the game files were able to transformed into eu files, so i guess province divisions have to 'suggest' eu ones; considering the time period, though, they should also reflect the themas and latin kingdoms. this is ridiculously easy in the balkans, but a nightmare in anatolia.

starting south, and going clockwise:

thema kritis
thema peloponnesou
thema kephalinias: the other ionian islands not drawn
thema nikopoleos: epirus and corfu
thema dyrrachiou: southwest albania
thema dalmatia: almost all the way to trieste
thema thessalonikis: the top half of eu's "hellas" halfway into "macedonia", past mount athos; "hellas" was drawn too tall as the duchy of athens stopped at thebes
thema strymonos: the rest of "macedonia"; too small to bother
thema makedonias: oddly enough, most of eu's "thrace"
thema thrakoon: the theme of thrace, in eu terms a meager northeast 'square' on the black sea
thema aigaiou pelagous: see below
thema hellados: see below

and finally, the environs of constantinople should be a separate province.

when the crusaders hit: the mainland part of "hellados" becomes the 'duchy of athens', euboea becomes 'negroponte', the cyclades become the 'duchy of archipelago'; all of which, as well as the former theme of cephalonia, are (theoretically) under the suzerainty of the 'principality of achaea', in the morea. the themes of nicopolis and dyrrhachium become the 'despotate of epirus'. at the very least, the theme of thessaloniki becomes the 'kingdom of thessalonica'.


Originally posted by Demetrios
In Byzantine times, the Aegean Islands were included in the Theme of Samos and the Theme of the Aegean Islands. The Theme of Hellas was cofined to the mainland with the exception of Euboia.

we probably have two different sources. i have a high school history book from greece; i wish i had a scanner so i could show you the map. anyway, i assume thematic boundries changed. the table i have reads "thematic table of the empire during her pinnacle (10th century)" in this map, thema hellados is shown as having attica, boeotia, phocis, a small part of southern thessaly, euboea, the cyclades, the sporades, lemnos, and imbros. there is no theme of samos; the theme of the aegean sea is shown as having samos, chios, lesbos, and the other near islands not included in hellados, with the exception of most of the dodecanese, which are in another theme. most of these islands are of course not drawn, but it still tends to put eu's "ionia" with "hellas".

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
Palaiokastritsa! Are you sure? Never heard of Palaiokastritsa as capital of anything? Surely Corfu or Kassiopi as major forts would be "capital" of Corfu

am i sure? no. it was late and i was going on a big assumption; according to 'the atlas of the crusades' the major latin fortress on corfu was sant' angelo. it used to be a byzantine fort, by the name of palaiokastritsa. since you mentioned kassiopi... i don't know, i was probably too much on my high horse about wanting corfu listed as 'kerkyra' ;)

Originally posted by Demetrios
Tsk, tsk, a Greek like you using Latin forms for Greek names instead of direct transliteration! :) :)

:) meden agan...

steph

p.s. i'll do a 'play by play' of anatolia in a sec; it's too complicated...
 
Last edited:

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Originally posted by stephanos


hey, thanks for the info :) i read somewhere that the game files were able to transformed into eu files, so i guess province divisions have to 'suggest' eu ones; considering the time period, though, they should also reflect the themas and latin kingdoms. this is ridiculously easy in the balkans, but a nightmare in anatolia.

starting south, and going clockwise:

thema kritis
thema peloponnesou
thema kephalinias: the other ionian islands not drawn
thema nikopoleos: epirus and corfu
thema dyrrachiou: southwest albania
thema dalmatia: almost all the way to trieste
thema thessalonikis: the top half of eu's "hellas" halfway into "macedonia", past mount athos; "hellas" was drawn too tall as the duchy of athens stopped at thebes
thema strymonos: the rest of "macedonia"; too small to bother
thema makedonias: oddly enough, most of eu's "thrace"
thema thrakoon: the theme of thrace, in eu terms a meager northeast 'square' on the black sea
thema aigaiou pelagous: see below
thema hellados: see below

and finally, the environs of constantinople should be a separate province.
Which will, given that Kerkyra (;)) is a province on it's own and Hellas split in three, give a total of 16 provinces - covering the 8 EU provinces of Trache, Macedonia, Hellas, Albania, Morea, Ionia, Corfu and Crete - right?
 

unmerged(8523)

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Originally posted by Havard

Which will, given that Kerkyra (;)) is a province on it's own and Hellas split in three, give a total of 16 provinces - covering the 8 EU provinces of Thrace, Macedonia, Hellas, Albania, Morea, Ionia, Corfu and Crete - right?

yep, just like a greek to make things problematic, eh? :) well, actually less, since i'm not advocating 'strymonos' nor 'aigaiou pelagous'. i thought i read there'd be more provinces, but if themes have to exactly match eu provinces, then mainland nikopoleos and dyrrachiou could be combined (albania), makedonia and thrakoon could be combined (thrace), and something could be worked out for the aegean islands... just as long as they're not called 'ionia' :D

steph
 
Last edited:

unmerged(8523)

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anatolia

okay, i'm going to post this under a series of presumptions: first, that CK will have a few more provinces, and that somehow they'll have to match up with EU's provinces.

first, i'm going to write the 10th century byzantine themas that correspond to EU's provinces, and then later i am going to go down in flames in the attempt to influence how they should be drawn to simulate seljuk and ottoman expansion ;)

okay :) i'm using half-phonetic/half-latinized spellings

smyrna: except for its northern coast along the hellespont, it perfectly corresponds to the thema of thrakesion

the northern part of smyrna, plus half of anatolia except its northern shore, form the thema of opsikiou

anatolia: except the part that goes to opsikiou, it combines the themas of optimaton (the peninsula across from constantinople, on the asiatic side), boukellarion which also includes half of angora underneath kastamon, and nothern part of anatolikon

anatolikon is complicated, i'll get to further on

kastamon: was the thema paphlagonias

trabzon: should be split vertically in half, into themas armeniakon and chaldias

angora: the part not given to boukellarion should be named the thema of charsianou

antalya: this, along with the very western end of konya, with the 2/3 of the coast of taurus formed the thema of kibyrraioton; it should suggest a triangular shape

taurus: the part not in kibyrraioton formed the thema of seleukeias; in other words, it should only have an eastern shore, the southern and western belonging to the other.

konya: its middle third not in kibyrraioton plus the southern fourth of anatolia formed thema anatolikon; it should look slightly rectangular... its eastern third formed thema kappadokias

sivas: combines (from north going counter-clockwise) koloneias, sebasteias, lykandou, and mesopotamias

okay, now that you know that, my preliminary argument is for all provinces except optimaton and boukellarion, which can be merged into 'boukellarion'; kappadokias, which can be merged with 'anatolikon'; and the four themes in "sivas", which can be merged into 'sebasteias'. we can trim the fat from there. that's 11 provinces covering 10 eu provinces, if i counted correctly.

looking at this map again i think my earlier post was in error: samos and most of the dodecanese (except rhodes) belonged to 'kibyrraioton'. the aegean sea theme covers the other islands i mentioned before and appears to include rhodes. cyprus is of course, a separate theme.

speaking of separate themas; kaffa at least, maybe kerch, belonged to thema 'chersonas'. i'll get to italy later.

since eu was pretty good about multiple points of view, maybe some of the anatolian themas, the very eastern ones, should get turkish names... well, scratch that; once i do some research on how the turks expanded, i'll have to drop some eastern themas altogether in favor of turkish provinces.

where do i post info on byzantine military units? (as far as army names, for flavor)

stephanos
 

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Re: anatolia

Originally posted by stephanos
okay, i'm going to post this under a series of presumptions: first, that CK will have a few more provinces, and that somehow they'll have to match up with EU's provinces.
Basically I have assumed (since we don't know) that we will get an average of CK 2-3 provinces for each EU province. This is based on what has been hinted as a number of provinces, compared to the area in EU.

In a conflict between historicity vs. fitting EU provinces it would sure make it easier if the provinces would fit somewhat to the EU partition, but I guess (hope?) some slack can be cut here... (It will just be a tad more difficult to code the converter ;))


Interresting posts. If we were to divide a bit more - how could that be done? And, I think you have touched into the area of Cilician Armenia (Armenia Minor)?

where do i post info on byzantine military units? (as far as army names, for flavor)
That would warrant a seperate thread, I'd say :)
 

unmerged(8523)

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Re: Re: anatolia

Originally posted by Havard

Basically I have assumed (since we don't know) that we will get an average of CK 2-3 provinces for each EU province. This is based on what has been hinted as a number of provinces, compared to the area in EU.

In a conflict between historicity vs. fitting EU provinces it would sure make it easier if the provinces would fit somewhat to the EU partition, but I guess (hope?) some slack can be cut here... (It will just be a tad more difficult to code the converter ;))


Interresting posts. If we were to divide a bit more - how could that be done? And, I think you have touched into the area of Cilician Armenia (Armenia Minor)?

thanks again for the info; unfortunately i know it's a pain... it's going to get even more complicated when you consider that province shapes have to accomodate the latin empire, nicaea, and trebizond; not to mention encroaching seljuks, danishmends (spelling?), and ottomans... so, after giving all the information i can, i'm going to try and draw everything on paper and see what i come up with. you're right about armenia minor, since they basically had "taurus" and "adana"; they're another one that changed shapes a lot ("aleppo" and big parts of "sivas")...

steph
 

unmerged(8523)

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another thing...

another reason to split "hellas" is to better simulate serbian expansion into the balkans.

if you divide "morea", you can include the despotate of morea as well as the later, smaller principality of achaea, which shrank as the other got larger.

did i actually post i was going to draw this on paper? ha! i'm taking these maps and having them scanned somewhere :D

steph
 

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Moderm Greece will look like an intricate jigsaw puzzle with the Latin Occupation and the post-1204 divisions. For instance, what do we do about Venetian colonies? Galata? We will either end up with tons of single-city provinces, or we would end up with vague ahistorical. In terms of the various Turkish states, the maps from the Times History of Europe look pretty interesting, but I think they have quite a few too many provinces for the 1 EU prov to 2 or 3 CK prov ratio. Anatolia and Greece do deserve some intricate province cutting work though - they were heavily contested regions throughout the period. We have the Turks, first as the Suljuks, then as teh various smaller Turkish powers, then as teh Ottomans. We have the Serbians and the Bulgarians as a unified nation and as smaller states. We have the various Latin principalities, and we have Greek fiefdoms.

Thrace could be divided into three provinces, one around Constantinople, one around Adrianople and one around the Gallopoli and the Dardanelles (sp?) Eastern Anatolia could use provinces based around major cities - Nicaea, Philedelphia, etc. The themes is a good idea, but the provinces are still kind of big.

Just my two byzants. :D
 

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I have a map of the Byzantine Empire out of the Encyclopaedia Britannica that shows the themes as they were in 1025. I've passed on my ideas about the borders of the themes to Greven, having managed to work out how most of the themes will fit in. Looks like we are working from basically the same list Stephanos, although my map has a Theme of Samos which corresponds almost exactly to the ancient region of Ionia.

Silly genetive forms! :D In English they will have to be changed over to their nominative form to become the "Theme of X", which will be shortened to just "X" on the map. Otherwise, using the genetive, we will have to say "Paphlagonian Theme" instead of just "Paphalgonia" on the map...

Don't worry about Italy, Stephanos. The Byzantines were down to their last few cities by 1066, so the Theme of Langobardia would be one CK province at most...
 

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Originally posted by Demetrios
I have a map of the Byzantine Empire out of the Encyclopaedia Britannica that shows the themes as they were in 1025. I've passed on my ideas about the borders of the themes to Greven, having managed to work out how most of the themes will fit in. Looks like we are working from basically the same list Stephanos, although my map has a Theme of Samos which corresponds almost exactly to the ancient region of Ionia.

Silly genetive forms! :D In English they will have to be changed over to their nominative form to become the "Theme of X", which will be shortened to just "X" on the map. Otherwise, using the genetive, we will have to say "Paphlagonian Theme" instead of just "Paphalgonia" on the map...

Don't worry about Italy, Stephanos. The Byzantines were down to their last few cities by 1066, so the Theme of Langobardia would be one CK province at most...

thanks demetrios; if there was a samos, i concede the point. i just wanted to warn that the ancient "ionia" was the west coast of turkey and not any group of islands. "samos" makes a much better name :)

LOL about the genitives :) i guess you have a choice: in greek the genitive can stand by itself, the 'thema' being understood. so, i have no problems whatsover with "paphlagonia", but i'd prefer "paphlagonias"; it's not like the non-philhellenes will know the difference, ha! :D

thanks again ;)
steph
 

Demetrios

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Oh, and Stephanos, apparently your list is froma time before the Bulgarians were fully conquered, as it lacks (from east to west) the Themes of Paristrion, Bulgaria, and Sirmion.

Rhodes did indeed belong to the Kibyrraiot Theme, at least according to my map...
 

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does the general "we'll get two to three provinces per eu province" apply to the larger islands like crete, cyprus, sicily, sardinia, and corsica?

where would i post event ideas pertaining to crete?
 
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How about some new islands?
At the very least there should be the islands of Lesbos, Chios, Euboea, Cerigo, Naxos, and maybe Cephalonia.



Perhaps Philadelphia deserves a province of its own since it was Byzantine from 1290s-1390s yet they never had a land connection to it, and it was completely surrounded by Muslim states.
 

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I would ask one thing though. Can one really go by the themes only as a basis for provs? The reconquest led to a large number of very small themes while many "older" themes was quite big.
 

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Re: crete

Originally posted by stephanos
does the general "we'll get two to three provinces per eu province" apply to the larger islands like crete, cyprus, sicily, sardinia, and corsica?

where would i post event ideas pertaining to crete?

I would keep Crete undivided as it was always a single theme and not a big one at that. Cyprus is subject to the same thing. Sicily and Sardina could possibly be split though as they have a bigger size also historically they actually show quite a few times of being actually divided.