The Provinces! (British Isles)

[Pan Zagloba]

Originally posted by Pwyll
Here is a decent map pf England anyways...its counties...and links to the chief citites in them.

Right from the Doomsday book ( 1086 )...
It will be difficult...but not impossible to get more accurate than that. It is somewhat lacking in detail...of course I assume all decisions as to map design have already been done.

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/book.html

It's a good map of the traditional counties. However, it makes an error with Middlesex, using instead the 1964 boundary of Greater London. In this period, Surrey, Kent, Essex and Middlesex all met in the middle of modern Greater London, more or less. (The Lea was the border between Middx and Essex, not sure where the Kent/Surrey border was on the south side).

Zagloba

 

[unmerged(9167)]

It's a good map of the traditional counties. However, it makes an error with Middlesex, using instead the 1964 boundary of Greater London. In this period, Surrey, Kent, Essex and Middlesex all met in the middle of modern Greater London, more or less. (The Lea was the border between Middx and Essex, not sure where the Kent/Surrey border was on the south side).

Well, the one better hopes that Paradox is being careful! It is so easy to make mistakes.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Bump bump...

Anyone know anything yet then about how CK will represent the British Isles? (Last post was months ago).

SOMEBODY at least comment on my lovely map.

us.geocities.com/mustosnuggs/CKsuggest.gif

 

[Hrv123]

[

Yeah, interest for any confirmed names and pictures of map and provinces on it ( scrienies) is great

us.geocities.com/mustosnuggs/CKsuggest.gif

Will provinces on map look like that or is this only some history map in apsolutly no conection whit CK ?

 

[King]

A couple of suggestions, at the time Scone, was written as it was pronounce Scoone. Also it is not much of a fortress (at least now it ain't anyway).

It was the corniation site for the Scottish Kings, but other important towns in the area were St Andrews (the Castle is still standing and it looks very impressive and a big cathedral), Falkland, Perth (I think it was called St. Johns back then but don't quote me on that one) and Dunfermline with it's important abbey.

Some of the Scottish province names don't look right, don't ask me why, thye just don't. What are we using to name them I might be able to come up with a few suggestions.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Don't worry, that map is just a bit of speculation, I don't know any more than you do about the actual layout of CK's map British Isles or otherwise . I mostly wanted to rekindle interest in this thread, see whether there was more news, opinions, whether the map has already been finalised etc. But no, that isn't how it will look, barring some freak coincidence.

 

[BaronFoxxe]

I know that assigning capitals for this game is a bit annoying. For example, Alnwick is little more than a bit of high ground in 1066, and may have been a rough stick and dirt fort in 1093. But, as time progresses it does become the powerbase of Northumberland. So the question is, should the capital of Northumberland be a more important city of 1066... or should there be an anticipation of the importance of Alnwick?

Pesonally, I am a bit of a fan of the "Hotspur" so I tend to wanting Alnwick for the capital. But, I can easily see the arguements for Durham... or even Berwick.

I was just wondering what other peoples opinions are concerning the capitals/provinces. Should we be concerned specifically about 1066 or more time-averaged names/sizes/placement?
a

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by BaronFoxxe

I was just wondering what other peoples opinions are concerning the capitals/provinces. Should we be concerned specifically about 1066 or more time-averaged names/sizes/placement?

It depends... If there are featured to allow new cities to grow to replace exciting ones as major centras we could get both. If not I think I'll lean to a compromise - the one most important for the longest time of the game period.

 

[unmerged(485)]

My guess is that provinces/cities will be static (the cities will grow like in EU II but no new ones) and like Havard said, the one which was the most important for most of the game period would be the one listed in the province.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Alnwick is certainly a possibility and so would be Hexham and Newcastle (though not Berwick IMO - Scottish for most of the game period). But power in this region tended to rest with the Bishop of Durham and the city of Durham - itself called 'Dunholm' by the AS until the mid-C12 - is surely the obvious choice for the seat of regional power, being a major ecclesiastical centre, town and fortress almost throughout the period. But then I am a child of the Palatinate

 

[Fawr]

I would like to see the Marches split into

Cheshire (Chester)
Gloucestershire (Gloucester)
Shropshire (Shrewsbury)
Herefordshire (Hereford) - maybe combine with Glou/Salop
Pembroke (Pembroke/Carmarthen)

Cheshire was so important I wouldn't combine it with Shropshire. For the early part of the period (until just before 1300) the Marches were a significant power base. The greatest lords mostly came from the marches (Rupert fitzHenry (Glou) (brother to Maude), Both regents for Henry III (Chester/Pembroke), The regent for Edward III(Glou), ...). One of the sources for their power was the need for armed men to be ready to act at short notice, and the other was the fact that the lords on this border extended their influence beyond what their Kings anticipated.

And for Wales

Pembroke (West Deheubarth, east part should be in Gloucestershire) - mentioned above, for most of the period it was controled by Marcher lords
Gwynedd (Aber/Bangor)
Powys - Maybe split into Upper/Lower Powys (Lack of cities, could use castles, but they were build after 1066)

Powys was the largest and most significant part of Wales. The "princes" in Gwynedd only became pre-eminent within Wales when they conqured significant parts of (Upper) Powys. Upper Powys was closer to the coast and contained Mold, lower Powys contained Caus and should stretch to the edge of Cardigan/Carmarathen.

Spliting Wales into 4 provinces should be done by spliting the Powys rather than Deheubarth, both because of its size and because of its relitive importance.

 

[Garuda]

I know Harvard's list is only suggestive, but if Paradox were to include Worcestershire but not Warwickshire I for one would be severely depressed!!!

Yours truly,

Garuda, Earl of warwick

 

[Earl Uhtred]

I agree. It would make far more sense to have a province based around Warwick and another for Hereford and/or Gloucester. Worcester just didn't have the same level of importance.

Shropshire might be better off part of Cheshire. We will see.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

i just hope that all your current discussion is void as the map for CK is final. this thread certainly is a "blast" from the past

 

[Calgacus]

The British Isles
In EU2 covered by 20 provinces = abt.40-60 CK provinces?

England
In EU2 covered by 10 provinces = abt.20-30 CK provinces?
Scotland
In EU2 covered by 4 provinces = abt.8-12 CK provinces?
- The Orkneys
- The Isles
- Isle of Man
- The Highlands
- The Grampians
- Argyll
- Perthshire/Angus
- Kingdom of Fife
- Ayr/Clyde
- Dumfries/Galloway
- Lothian
Four turn into 10...

Call the Grampians "Moray", Ayr/Clyde "Strathclyde" and Perthshire/ Angus "Dunkeld". Galloway should be called Galloway, as Dumfries was not of any significance back then. And Fife should just be Fife. I know Fib was a Pictish kingdom, and the Alba (post-Viking) of our period was divided into areas of control centred on Fife and Moray. Scandinvian sources actually call the Mormaer of Moray "King of Scotland", although he was the subordinate of the proper Rex Scottorum in Fife-Lothian. Both areas produced rival royal branches, which I guess is why it's called "kingdom".

 

[unmerged(2907)]

Shropshire might be better off part of Cheshire. We will see.

Not if you want to remain in one piece, spanky. Us Shropies are well known for favouring violence.

Shropshire born,
Shropshire bred,
Strong in the arm,
Think in the head.

Good job I wasn't born there :rofl:

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Not if you want to remain in one piece, spanky. Us Shropies are well known for favouring violence.

Shropshire born,
Shropshire bred,
Strong in the arm,
Think in the head.

Good job I wasn't born there :rofl:

LOL. Expediency, dear boy. How do you think a loyal dreng of the Bishop of Durham feels about what EU2 calls 'Northumberland' never mind 'Tyne and Wear'?

 

[unmerged(24379)]

- The Orkneys
- The Isles
- Isle of Man

Sounds great, may I suggest that the Lord of the Isles, the Earl of Orkney and the King of Man are all vassals of Norway?

 

[Havard]

Sounds great, may I suggest that the Lord of the Isles, the Earl of Orkney and the King of Man are all vassals of Norway?

Well, in 1066 they should at least be closely tied to Norway. I am a bit uncertain about the status of The Isles and Man though, as they appears to have been closer tied to the Norse-Irish rulers in Dublin...

 

[unmerged(24379)]

At least at the 1187 start, they should be vassals of Norway. Pherhaps only Orkney and the Isles in 1066, I'm not sure...