It's a suggestion I based on a list of shires, where I picked the largest one. The shire list was over modern shires. I don't know if that can be used here, but it is at least a starting base for discussions
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It's a suggestion I based on a list of shires, where I picked the largest one. The shire list was over modern shires. I don't know if that can be used here, but it is at least a starting base for discussions
Cantebury
The 5 castles on the Welsh border (later)
Cornwall
Mercia before William stopped it as a dukedom
Wessex
Suessex
Ireland
The Pale after Henry II, before Dublin
The Isle of Man was a seperate kingdom but fell under English rule.
The 5 castles on the Welsh border (later)
Cornwall
Mercia before William stopped it as a dukedom
Wessex
Suessex
Ireland
The Pale after Henry II, before Dublin
The Isle of Man was a seperate kingdom but fell under English rule.
I expect to see more maybe smaller " counties " near border lands and areas of contention between two " Dynasties "
more on the Welsh/ English and Scots/English borders..... at first at least till a strong central power emerges.
How will a one province dynasty split up its lands on the death of a noble to his heirs?? IIRC this was something to be implemented...
more on the Welsh/ English and Scots/English borders..... at first at least till a strong central power emerges.
How will a one province dynasty split up its lands on the death of a noble to his heirs?? IIRC this was something to be implemented...
For Ireland, I wouldn't strictly use the countries that now divide the island - most are the result of the pattern of English plantation/colonization. Instead, I would suggest basing the provinces on the significant lordships. Some of the gaelic ones could be:
MacCarthy
MacMurrough
O'Donnell
O'Neill
Other provinces could be based on the first significant territories acquired by the Anglo-Irish:
Desmond
Ormond
Kildare
For some places where one clan or lord wasn't dominant, the later county name could be substituted.
Probably I would suggest figuring out which clan/lords are to be in CK, & then deriving the provinces based on what territory each roughly controlled.
MacCarthy
MacMurrough
O'Donnell
O'Neill
Other provinces could be based on the first significant territories acquired by the Anglo-Irish:
Desmond
Ormond
Kildare
For some places where one clan or lord wasn't dominant, the later county name could be substituted.
Probably I would suggest figuring out which clan/lords are to be in CK, & then deriving the provinces based on what territory each roughly controlled.
Originally posted by Havard
It's a suggestion I based on a list of shires, where I picked the largest one. The shire list was over modern shires. I don't know if that can be used here, but it is at least a starting base for discussions
another approach which might have validity is to chose
those english counties that had earls under william I and his
immediate successors. this would probably over represent marcher areas but might be a touch more realistic in terms
of which areas were important.
hmm, to my knowledge the Orkneys and Shetlands were part of the Kingdom of Scotland; they just weren't part of the territory ruled directly by the king of Scotland, them being ruled by the king of Norway (and constituting a claim of the latter upon the former).
Laur
Laur
It puzzles me to what distincion can be made ( if any ) as to the differences between a Norman lord and his lands in England and a Saxon Noble and his lands...were all of the Saxon nobles eventually replaced with Norman ones???
What about a marriage of two Cultures...Norman Lord to Welsh Princess lets say...does their children have a Norman/Welsh heritage now enabling them to function better in both cultural spheres.
Sorry this could have been placed in a new thread entirely...
What about a marriage of two Cultures...Norman Lord to Welsh Princess lets say...does their children have a Norman/Welsh heritage now enabling them to function better in both cultural spheres.
Sorry this could have been placed in a new thread entirely...
That sound interesting to me! That have potential! I think that I agree with him regarding the culture intermarriage. It may also worsen the ruler's interaction of both cultures, since some really do not like the outsider's blood in their ruler.
I think that provinces based on counties would be fine - they had already been used to divide up England for 200 years by 1066.
However, if (in game terms) it's better to have the provinces reflect what areas of the country were important, I'd suggest, as a very first draft, the following list for England, reading roughly South to North.
The Cinque Ports (the coastal strip of Kent and eastern Sussex). Capital Dover.
Kent (North and central Kent). Capital Maidstone.
Canterbury The area around Canterbury and Thanet. Capital Canterbury.
The Weald (South Kent and the inland parts of Sussex - mostly impenetrable forest in 1066). Capital Uckfield or Rotherfield.
Sussex The coastal areas of Sussex. Capital Lewes.
Surrey Modern Surrey and modern South London. Capital Kingston-on-Thames.
Hampton Hampshire and east Dorset coast and the Isle of Wight. Capital (South)-Hampton.
Winchester The rest of Hampshire. Capital Winchester.
Dorset & the Levels South Somerset and the rest of Dorset. Capital Dorchester.
Devon Modern Devon. Capital Exeter.
Kernow Modern Cornwall. Capital Truro.
London The City of London. Capital London.
Westminster Westminster and west London. Capital Westminster.
Berkshire Thames valley as far as Oxford. Capital Windsor.
Oxford Pre-1960s Oxfordshire, plus Buckinghamshire. Capital Oxford.
Hertfordshire Modern Hertfordshire. Capital Hertford.
Essex Modern Essex. Capital Chelmsford.
Suffolk Modern Suffolk. Capital Ipswich.
Norfolk Modern Norfolk excluding the Fens. Capital Norwich.
Bristol Somerset north of the Levels, and southern Gloucestershire. Capital Bristol.
CotswoldsEastern Gloucestershire and Worcestershire. Capital Worcester.
South MarchesThe borderlands of Gloucestershire and Herefordshire. Capital Gloucester.
North MarchesShropshire and Cheshire. Capital Chester.
West MerciaStaffordshire and north Warwickshire.
BedfordBedfordshire, Northamptonshire, Huntingdonshire and south Cambridgeshire. Capital Bedford.
The FensCambridgeshire, the Isle of Ely, south Lincolnshire and west Norfolk. Capital Cambridge.
LincolnLincolnshire north of the Fens and east Nottinghamshire. Capital Lincoln.
DerbyDerbyshire, west Nottinghamshire. Capital Derby.
YorkshireAll historic Yorkshire. Capital York.
Lancashire Ditto, except Furness. Capital Lancaster.
The North Country Everything north of there to the Scottish border. Capital Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
There are 30 provinces there, which is probably too many, but I think we need more provinces in the South, to represent the national power base, and less and less definition as we get further north, to represent how far from monarchical power some of the country was.
I'd have liked to have included the Bishopric of Durham and a bit more detail in the Welsh Marches, but otherwise we'll end up with 200 provinces covering England.
What do people think?
Zagloba
However, if (in game terms) it's better to have the provinces reflect what areas of the country were important, I'd suggest, as a very first draft, the following list for England, reading roughly South to North.
The Cinque Ports (the coastal strip of Kent and eastern Sussex). Capital Dover.
Kent (North and central Kent). Capital Maidstone.
Canterbury The area around Canterbury and Thanet. Capital Canterbury.
The Weald (South Kent and the inland parts of Sussex - mostly impenetrable forest in 1066). Capital Uckfield or Rotherfield.
Sussex The coastal areas of Sussex. Capital Lewes.
Surrey Modern Surrey and modern South London. Capital Kingston-on-Thames.
Hampton Hampshire and east Dorset coast and the Isle of Wight. Capital (South)-Hampton.
Winchester The rest of Hampshire. Capital Winchester.
Dorset & the Levels South Somerset and the rest of Dorset. Capital Dorchester.
Devon Modern Devon. Capital Exeter.
Kernow Modern Cornwall. Capital Truro.
London The City of London. Capital London.
Westminster Westminster and west London. Capital Westminster.
Berkshire Thames valley as far as Oxford. Capital Windsor.
Oxford Pre-1960s Oxfordshire, plus Buckinghamshire. Capital Oxford.
Hertfordshire Modern Hertfordshire. Capital Hertford.
Essex Modern Essex. Capital Chelmsford.
Suffolk Modern Suffolk. Capital Ipswich.
Norfolk Modern Norfolk excluding the Fens. Capital Norwich.
Bristol Somerset north of the Levels, and southern Gloucestershire. Capital Bristol.
CotswoldsEastern Gloucestershire and Worcestershire. Capital Worcester.
South MarchesThe borderlands of Gloucestershire and Herefordshire. Capital Gloucester.
North MarchesShropshire and Cheshire. Capital Chester.
West MerciaStaffordshire and north Warwickshire.
BedfordBedfordshire, Northamptonshire, Huntingdonshire and south Cambridgeshire. Capital Bedford.
The FensCambridgeshire, the Isle of Ely, south Lincolnshire and west Norfolk. Capital Cambridge.
LincolnLincolnshire north of the Fens and east Nottinghamshire. Capital Lincoln.
DerbyDerbyshire, west Nottinghamshire. Capital Derby.
YorkshireAll historic Yorkshire. Capital York.
Lancashire Ditto, except Furness. Capital Lancaster.
The North Country Everything north of there to the Scottish border. Capital Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
There are 30 provinces there, which is probably too many, but I think we need more provinces in the South, to represent the national power base, and less and less definition as we get further north, to represent how far from monarchical power some of the country was.
I'd have liked to have included the Bishopric of Durham and a bit more detail in the Welsh Marches, but otherwise we'll end up with 200 provinces covering England.
What do people think?
Zagloba
I think Winchester should be devied into Wessex: lower coast of Winchester capital: Winchester
and south hampshire
and south hampshire
I don't think much of your Scottish provinces.
You even managed to completely miss out where I am from - the borders - which is an entire modern region and shouldn't be lumped in with Lothian. Indeed, some of the fiercest Engliand/Scotland battles were fouth there. It is probably best to call it 'The Borderlands' since that is what it is called in all the old songs. Its capital should then be Roxburgh.
You even managed to completely miss out where I am from - the borders - which is an entire modern region and shouldn't be lumped in with Lothian. Indeed, some of the fiercest Engliand/Scotland battles were fouth there. It is probably best to call it 'The Borderlands' since that is what it is called in all the old songs. Its capital should then be Roxburgh.
Originally posted by Rogan
I don't think much of your Scottish provinces.
You even managed to completely miss out where I am from - the borders - which is an entire modern region and shouldn't be lumped in with Lothian. Indeed, some of the fiercest Engliand/Scotland battles were fouth there. It is probably best to call it 'The Borderlands' since that is what it is called in all the old songs. Its capital should then be Roxburgh.
Good idea, Rogan. In general, I think, areas that were strategically important (like the Cinque Ports in my post earlier) should be included, even if they are small by province standards.
Zagloba
Scotland -
Please God not 'Grampians' again. No such thing existed before some Victorian fool decided that area needed a classical name and misread Mons Graupius. What's wrong with Moray?
As to Fife, the locals may call it a Kingdom but there's no real basis for that. Another Romantic fabrication IIFC.
Drink my genius...
us.geocities.com/snuggs_heorot/bloodaxe.gif
(Geocities won't let me link...)
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The Cinque Ports (the coastal strip of Kent and eastern Sussex). Capital Dover.
Kent (North and central Kent). Capital Maidstone.
Canterbury The area around Canterbury and Thanet. Capital Canterbury.
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That's three small, small provinces.
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The Weald (South Kent and the inland parts of Sussex - mostly impenetrable forest in 1066). Capital Uckfield or Rotherfield.
Sussex The coastal areas of Sussex. Capital Lewes.
Surrey Modern Surrey and modern South London. Capital Kingston-on-Thames.
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All good stuff, but surely off the radar scale-wise?
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Hampton Hampshire and east Dorset coast and the Isle of Wight. Capital (South)-Hampton.
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Actually Soton was already distinguished from Northampton by the C12, so the modern spelling should be OK
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Winchester The rest of Hampshire. Capital Winchester.
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Wessex?
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Dorset & the Levels South Somerset and the rest of Dorset. Capital Dorchester.
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Even fitting the name on the map could become troublesome, though I agree with the concept of the area - those two districts seem to share fates. I'd say Taunton or possibly Sherborne for Fuhrerstadte. Perhaps call this unit 'Selwood'. Inaccurate but short at least.
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Devon Modern Devon. Capital Exeter.
Kernow Modern Cornwall. Capital Truro.
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Truro was chickenfeed until the C19. How about Bodmin?
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London The City of London. Capital London.
Westminster Westminster and west London. Capital Westminster.
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Ooh Christ, these provinces are dinky.
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The North Country Everything north of there to the Scottish border. Capital Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
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That and Yorkshire are huge compared to some of your other provinces. If we are going to adopt a county level approach, how about Durham? After all it was virtually autonomous under its Prince-Bishops and also makes sense as a geographical unit lying as it does between two rivers. Cumberland-Westmorland should be hived off too. Leaving us with Northumberland. Capital Alnwick, perhaps.
Another possibility - if we're going for small provinces - is Tynedale, cap Hexham, an area long claimed by the King of Scots. Another advantage is we would then have three Marcher provinces, just like the historical division West/Middle/East March.
I don't believe it's the province system's job to reflect concentrations of wealth. It is to regulate military movement and large-scale political changes. Concentrations of wealth were represented in EU by enhanced tax/manpower/religion WITHIN provinces of theoretically 'identical' size and so should it be here. I mean, can you imagine someone invading England and annexing Westminster but not London?
Please God not 'Grampians' again. No such thing existed before some Victorian fool decided that area needed a classical name and misread Mons Graupius. What's wrong with Moray?
As to Fife, the locals may call it a Kingdom but there's no real basis for that. Another Romantic fabrication IIFC.
Drink my genius...
us.geocities.com/snuggs_heorot/bloodaxe.gif
(Geocities won't let me link...)
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The Cinque Ports (the coastal strip of Kent and eastern Sussex). Capital Dover.
Kent (North and central Kent). Capital Maidstone.
Canterbury The area around Canterbury and Thanet. Capital Canterbury.
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That's three small, small provinces.
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The Weald (South Kent and the inland parts of Sussex - mostly impenetrable forest in 1066). Capital Uckfield or Rotherfield.
Sussex The coastal areas of Sussex. Capital Lewes.
Surrey Modern Surrey and modern South London. Capital Kingston-on-Thames.
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All good stuff, but surely off the radar scale-wise?
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Hampton Hampshire and east Dorset coast and the Isle of Wight. Capital (South)-Hampton.
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Actually Soton was already distinguished from Northampton by the C12, so the modern spelling should be OK
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Winchester The rest of Hampshire. Capital Winchester.
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Wessex?
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Dorset & the Levels South Somerset and the rest of Dorset. Capital Dorchester.
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Even fitting the name on the map could become troublesome, though I agree with the concept of the area - those two districts seem to share fates. I'd say Taunton or possibly Sherborne for Fuhrerstadte. Perhaps call this unit 'Selwood'. Inaccurate but short at least.
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Devon Modern Devon. Capital Exeter.
Kernow Modern Cornwall. Capital Truro.
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Truro was chickenfeed until the C19. How about Bodmin?
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London The City of London. Capital London.
Westminster Westminster and west London. Capital Westminster.
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Ooh Christ, these provinces are dinky.
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The North Country Everything north of there to the Scottish border. Capital Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
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That and Yorkshire are huge compared to some of your other provinces. If we are going to adopt a county level approach, how about Durham? After all it was virtually autonomous under its Prince-Bishops and also makes sense as a geographical unit lying as it does between two rivers. Cumberland-Westmorland should be hived off too. Leaving us with Northumberland. Capital Alnwick, perhaps.
Another possibility - if we're going for small provinces - is Tynedale, cap Hexham, an area long claimed by the King of Scots. Another advantage is we would then have three Marcher provinces, just like the historical division West/Middle/East March.
I don't believe it's the province system's job to reflect concentrations of wealth. It is to regulate military movement and large-scale political changes. Concentrations of wealth were represented in EU by enhanced tax/manpower/religion WITHIN provinces of theoretically 'identical' size and so should it be here. I mean, can you imagine someone invading England and annexing Westminster but not London?
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Here's my two groats, and I'm presuming quite a lot re ideal province size/function. All county references are pre-74. I'm making this up on the hoof so please correct or rubbish below at will.
ENGLAND
??CORNWALL - Cornwall, cap Bodmin
DEVON - Devon, cap Exeter
SELWOOD - Somerset and Dorset, cap Taunton
WESSEX - Hampshire, Wiltshire and Berkshire, cap Winchester
??SUSSEX - Sussex, cap Lewes
KENT - Kent and Surrey, cap Canterbury
ESSEX - Essex and Middlesex, cap London
CHILTERNS - Oxfordshire, Bucks, Herts and Beds, cap Oxford
EAST ANGLIA - Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridge area, cap Norwich
??MIDDLE ANGLIA - Northants, Rutland and Sokesey, cap Peterborough
HEREFORD - Gloucs, Hereford, Monmouth, cap Gloucester
CHESHIRE - Shropshire, Cheshire, Flint, Lancashire below the Ribble, cap Chester
MIDLANDS - Staffs, Warks, Worcs, cap Warwick
THE BOROUGHS or maybe SHERWOOD - Leics, Notts, Derbys, cap Nottingham
??LINDSEY - Lincs, cap Lincoln
CUMBERLAND - north Lancs and Cumberland and Westmorland - cap Carlisle
YORKSHIRE - tough one this, as it's massive, but it does and should dominate the region. Whole of Yorkshire, cap York.
DURHAM - Durham, cap Consett, er, Durham.
NORTHUMBERLAND - Nld, cap Alnwick
??TYNEDALE - upland parts of Northumberland, cap Hexham
WALES
GWYNEDD - 'Gwynedd' and Cardigan - cap Caernarfon
POWYS - 'Clywd' and Montgomery and Radnor - cap Llangollen
DEHEUBARTH - Pembroke, Carmarthen, capital Carmarthen or maybe St Davids (Mynwy)
GLAMORGAN - Everything else, inc Brecon but exc Monmouth, cap Cardiff (or Llandaff?)
SCOTLAND
MAN - Man - cap Peel
GALLOWAY - Galloway (only) - Wigtown, Kyle and the Rhins - cap Whithorn
NITHSDALE - Lanarkshire, Dumfriesshire, Kirkcudbright - cap either Dumfries or Lanark
MERSE - The western Borders, including most of the unit imaginatively dubbed 'Borders' by the cunts that butchered the old counties - cap perhaps Roxburgh, perhaps Selkirk, perhaps Dunbar, Melrose?
LOTHIAN - The south Forth region, including Edinburgh, cap Edinburgh Also a slice of the area to the south to prevent clutter.
STRATHCARRON - Stirlingshire, judiciously expanded westwards to merit province status, cap Stirling
ALBA - Emotively termed stopgap solution to name for region between the Tay and the Mounth. Capital either Perth or Scone.
FIFE or STRATHEARN - Fife and a slice of the hinterland, to include all not allocated above. Cap Dunfermline
??ARGYLL - County of Argyll extended northwards to include everything on the Scots west coast south of Loch Linnhe. Cap ??Oban.
SOUTH SODOR - All offshore islands north to and including Mull, plus Kintyre, cap Finlaggan
STRATHCLYDE or LENNOX - Clydebank and Clydesdale. Cap either Glasgow, Renfrew, Dumbarton or Largs.
MAR - Aberdeenshire plus everything west of the Spey. Cap probably Aberdeen.
MORAY - Between the Spey and Loch Nes. Cap likely to be Forres. (I would love Cawdor )
ROSS - Between the Great Glen and Caithness (with its anchorage on the west coast). Cap Dingwall.
CAITHNESS - Ultima Thule. Cap Wick. (Norse Katanes)
NORTH SODOR - All offshore islands between South Sodor and Orkney. Cap Dunvegan.
ORKNEY - I wonder whether Orkney and Shetland should be a unit. At any rate, the capital must be Birsay.
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Hmmm, this gives Scotland 16 provinces and England 'only' 20. Perhaps we should merge Strathearn/Alba, North/South Sodor, Moray/Mar, and Strathcarron/Argyll. Perhaps Man should be considered part of the province of Sodor.
But sod it all for now, I'm off to bed.
ENGLAND
??CORNWALL - Cornwall, cap Bodmin
DEVON - Devon, cap Exeter
SELWOOD - Somerset and Dorset, cap Taunton
WESSEX - Hampshire, Wiltshire and Berkshire, cap Winchester
??SUSSEX - Sussex, cap Lewes
KENT - Kent and Surrey, cap Canterbury
ESSEX - Essex and Middlesex, cap London
CHILTERNS - Oxfordshire, Bucks, Herts and Beds, cap Oxford
EAST ANGLIA - Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridge area, cap Norwich
??MIDDLE ANGLIA - Northants, Rutland and Sokesey, cap Peterborough
HEREFORD - Gloucs, Hereford, Monmouth, cap Gloucester
CHESHIRE - Shropshire, Cheshire, Flint, Lancashire below the Ribble, cap Chester
MIDLANDS - Staffs, Warks, Worcs, cap Warwick
THE BOROUGHS or maybe SHERWOOD - Leics, Notts, Derbys, cap Nottingham
??LINDSEY - Lincs, cap Lincoln
CUMBERLAND - north Lancs and Cumberland and Westmorland - cap Carlisle
YORKSHIRE - tough one this, as it's massive, but it does and should dominate the region. Whole of Yorkshire, cap York.
DURHAM - Durham, cap Consett, er, Durham.
NORTHUMBERLAND - Nld, cap Alnwick
??TYNEDALE - upland parts of Northumberland, cap Hexham
WALES
GWYNEDD - 'Gwynedd' and Cardigan - cap Caernarfon
POWYS - 'Clywd' and Montgomery and Radnor - cap Llangollen
DEHEUBARTH - Pembroke, Carmarthen, capital Carmarthen or maybe St Davids (Mynwy)
GLAMORGAN - Everything else, inc Brecon but exc Monmouth, cap Cardiff (or Llandaff?)
SCOTLAND
MAN - Man - cap Peel
GALLOWAY - Galloway (only) - Wigtown, Kyle and the Rhins - cap Whithorn
NITHSDALE - Lanarkshire, Dumfriesshire, Kirkcudbright - cap either Dumfries or Lanark
MERSE - The western Borders, including most of the unit imaginatively dubbed 'Borders' by the cunts that butchered the old counties - cap perhaps Roxburgh, perhaps Selkirk, perhaps Dunbar, Melrose?
LOTHIAN - The south Forth region, including Edinburgh, cap Edinburgh
Also a slice of the area to the south to prevent clutter.STRATHCARRON - Stirlingshire, judiciously expanded westwards to merit province status, cap Stirling
ALBA - Emotively termed stopgap solution to name for region between the Tay and the Mounth. Capital either Perth or Scone.
FIFE or STRATHEARN - Fife and a slice of the hinterland, to include all not allocated above. Cap Dunfermline
??ARGYLL - County of Argyll extended northwards to include everything on the Scots west coast south of Loch Linnhe. Cap ??Oban.
SOUTH SODOR - All offshore islands north to and including Mull, plus Kintyre, cap Finlaggan
STRATHCLYDE or LENNOX - Clydebank and Clydesdale. Cap either Glasgow, Renfrew, Dumbarton or Largs.
MAR - Aberdeenshire plus everything west of the Spey. Cap probably Aberdeen.
MORAY - Between the Spey and Loch Nes. Cap likely to be Forres. (I would love Cawdor
)ROSS - Between the Great Glen and Caithness (with its anchorage on the west coast). Cap Dingwall.
CAITHNESS - Ultima Thule. Cap Wick. (Norse Katanes)
NORTH SODOR - All offshore islands between South Sodor and Orkney. Cap Dunvegan.
ORKNEY - I wonder whether Orkney and Shetland should be a unit. At any rate, the capital must be Birsay.
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Hmmm, this gives Scotland 16 provinces and England 'only' 20. Perhaps we should merge Strathearn/Alba, North/South Sodor, Moray/Mar, and Strathcarron/Argyll. Perhaps Man should be considered part of the province of Sodor.
But sod it all for now, I'm off to bed.
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Here is a decent map pf England anyways...its counties...and links to the chief citites in them.
Right from the Doomsday book ( 1086 )...
It will be difficult...but not impossible to get more accurate than that. It is somewhat lacking in detail...of course I assume all decisions as to map design have already been done.
http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/book.html
Here is a very poor representation of a medieval Welsh map... This is probably post 1282 when Wales had to give over a fair bit of land to the victorious English crown.
http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarnant/hanes/maps/medieval.jpg
Right from the Doomsday book ( 1086 )...
It will be difficult...but not impossible to get more accurate than that. It is somewhat lacking in detail...of course I assume all decisions as to map design have already been done.
http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/book.html
Here is a very poor representation of a medieval Welsh map... This is probably post 1282 when Wales had to give over a fair bit of land to the victorious English crown.
http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarnant/hanes/maps/medieval.jpg
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How about this?
us.geocities.com/mustosnuggs/CKsuggest.gif
(Bastard Geocities won't let me post image or link; you will have to paste above into address bar)
us.geocities.com/mustosnuggs/CKsuggest.gif
(Bastard Geocities won't let me post image or link; you will have to paste above into address bar)
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