The problem with Tall

[Scorpio_Shirica]

Right now, it appears the biggest problem with playing tall is a lack of a way to get minerals. You must be lucky to start near a black hole or with a few planets high in minerals. Else, none of the alternative methods (ring worlds and habitats) will satisfy a tall civilization's need for minerals.

It seems a lot of the complaints about these megastructures are trying to solve this problem since many tall style players relied on them to satisfy that need even before minerals were the base part of a supply chain. Are there any other solutions besides relying on variable market rates that devs could do to allow tall play access to minerals without heavy reliance on RNG?

 

[Livigy]

Demand tribute for 25% of someone elses mineral production.

 

[Hecktor]

Try to start with alpin/arctic/tundra. In general they got more mining destricts. For me it worked well playing tall.

 

[Qoff]

Just played a tall game with inward perfection and life seeded, when the game stoped everybody in galaxy were pathetic to me.

 

[Scorpio_Shirica]

I didn't know that planet type affected the amount of minerals on your homeworld, that's nifty info! And yeah, making everyone into tributaries would work if you managed to get ahead early on before they overcame you with having wide empire access to many more resources.

 

[Less2]

Producing alloys to trade for minerals is more efficient than directly mining minerals.

 

[Gyrvendal]

It depends what you mean by playing tall. I generally colonize or conquer at least 8-12 planets before going "tall" from there. If you go under 5 planets you won't be really competitive IMO.

 

[Xaos]

I didn't know that planet type affected the amount of minerals on your homeworld, that's nifty info! And yeah, making everyone into tributaries would work if you managed to get ahead early on before they overcame you with having wide empire access to many more resources.

Yes. Dry climates have a higher chance for more energy districts, wet climates food, cold minerals. At least that's what it was in 2.1.

I feel that remains the same in 2.2.x so far to what I've seen.

 

[permeakra]

Are there any other solutions besides relying on variable market rates that devs could do to allow tall play access to minerals without heavy reliance on RNG?

Basically, you are asking for ways to either produce more minerals or decrease their consumption. As of now, aside from matter decompressor, mineral consumption can be reduced by avoiding refiners producing rare/strategic resources and use of trade to generate consumer goods, with minerals going into alloys and buildings exclusively.

IMHO, there should be late-game options for planet-crackers and stellar corona mining, also some advanced resources should be producible without minerals or with minimal use of minerals.

 

[Scorpio_Shirica]

It depends what you mean by playing tall. I generally colonize or conquer at least 8-12 planets before going "tall" from there. If you go under 5 planets you won't be really competitive IMO.

Yeah, pre 2.2. I could manage this with just enough planets to fill out my core sector and then going habitat/ ringworlds after getting a science nexus to continue boosting tall. I am wondering how many others who now see habitats/ ringworlds as extremely nerfed see this because they can't really fulfill the needs of tall empires like they used to and there isn't really a replacement.

 

[Acheron]

I currently also ply tall, but I grab every admin bonus I can get to support as many star systems as possible while still being tall. And of course, you need to think really hard about what planets you colonize and which systems you occupy when playing tall.

I crunched out four more science vessels because I was greedy for those anomalies. Turns out, if you get to figure out the hyperlane network early, you can also occupy star systems strategically, that is, you can leave them empty for a while to avoid the admin hit, but block of other empire's from them. Just beware those wormholes!

 

[impspy]

I currently also ply tall, but I grab every admin bonus I can get to support as many star systems as possible while still being tall. And of course, you need to think really hard about what planets you colonize and which systems you occupy when playing tall.

I crunched out four more science vessels because I was greedy for those anomalies. Turns out, if you get to figure out the hyperlane network early, you can also occupy star systems strategically, that is, you can leave them empty for a while to avoid the admin hit, but block of other empire's from them. Just beware those wormholes!

Exactly. Tall doesn't have mean "stick to a small area of the map;" my "tall" builds can, depending on starting location, mean that I make a mad grab of territory to secure my borders and leave the worlds untouched until I have the admin efficiency to make full use of them.

 

[SirAlexius]

I am playing "tall" in my latest game as machine empire, sitting neatly below/at my admin capacity and making a decent amount of minerals early and mid game. Once I started getting tributaries my energy and mineral income easily grew by a few hundred per month so I would say that is a viable income growth strategy for tall empires. The tech boost you get from not exceeding your admin capacity will easily allow you to dominate your neighbors militarily and get that sweet raw resource tribute.

 

[Jon Severinsson]

I'm currently playing a talish game on 2.2.3 (I'm way over my admin cap, but it is mostly districts, I'm still only possessing 29 systems, 25 of which I had within a few decades), and I haven't found any silver bullet for minerals past the early game. There is some ways that can help some though:

1. Perhaps somewhat obviously, build any and all mining districts available on whatever planets you do have. Gene mod your population with Communal (and/or Fertile if you went with the biological ascension path) rather than replacing mining districts with city districts. Also never sacrifice mining districts for agricultural or generator districts, that is what your ringworld is for ;-)
2. Mineral Purification Hubs (upgraded Mineral Purification Plants) will provide 2 extra miner jobs as well as a nice bonus to mineral production. That is essentially an extra mining district on each planet. Prioritize building them on planets with many mining districts, but eventually you will want one on every single planet you own, even if it has zero mining districts (excluding your Ringworld and Ecumenopolis, where the limited building slots are more valuable).
3. A Ministry of Production on every planet with CG/Alloy production will let you produce more CG/Alloys for the same amount of minerals.
4. Run the Consumer Benefits trade policy. Compared to Wealth Creation you are essentially trading for consumer gods at a rate of 2 EC per CG, which is crazy cheap.
5. The Production Targets and Ambition: Omnifarious Acquisition edicts can help a bit, but not that much. You are going to have to trade for minerals (and/or CG/Alloys, which amounts to the same thing), so reducing usage is always better than increasing production...
6. On that note, as soon as your CG consumped by pops (hover over the CG icon in the top bar to see this number) exceed about 40 start running the Recycling Campaign edict continuously. Depending on traits and living standards this should happen when your empire reaches somewhere between 50 and 100 pops.
7. As alluded to above you will probably want a Ringworld, and possibly an Ecumenopolis (if you have a largish planet without any mineral deposits), but don't bother with habitats. They have an alloys maintenance...

 

[pieman]

Right now, it appears the biggest problem with playing tall is a lack of a way to get minerals. You must be lucky to start near a black hole or with a few planets high in minerals. Else, none of the alternative methods (ring worlds and habitats) will satisfy a tall civilization's need for minerals.

It seems a lot of the complaints about these megastructures are trying to solve this problem since many tall style players relied on them to satisfy that need even before minerals were the base part of a supply chain. Are there any other solutions besides relying on variable market rates that devs could do to allow tall play access to minerals without heavy reliance on RNG?

I don't really have a problem with the geography of the galaxy determining if an empire can go tall or not. That's the lot of geography.

Even in real history, the 'meta' of the north European plane has always favored expansionist nations over tall or defensive ones. Venice's position and geography made it well suited for 'tall' play.

Geography is destiny, and having an empire that may be specced for tall having to adapt to geography that doesn't suit it isn't a bad thing.

 

[Acheron]

3. A Ministry of Production on every planet with CG/Alloy production will let you produce more CG/Alloys for the same amount of minerals.

Are you sure? I thought the ministry only increases the conversion, does it actually improve it?

 

[scarfacemperor]

Black holes also are frustrating in the sense that building the matter discompressor also sacrifices resources on the black hole, namely the dark matter that is required to upgrade your ships to some fallen empire tech.

Matter discompressor should be allowed on neutron stars and pulsars, they are quite similar to black holes after all. Or at lease make the matter discompressor also gather the black hole's dark matter.

 

[Nussor]

I had the complete opposite experience. Playing super tall, I get all my minerals from orbital stations while producing 100 Alloys per month in 2300.

 

[Jon Severinsson]

Are you sure? I thought the ministry only increases the conversion, does it actually improve it?

It increases production without increasing consumption.

(The game doesn't really know about conversions, only consumption and production)

I had the complete opposite experience. Playing super tall, I get all my minerals from orbital stations while producing 100 Alloys per month in 2300.

OK, looks like we are talking different scales here. By 2334 my current empire converts 1150.00 minerals into 594.78 consumer gods, 424.87 alloys, 19.42 volatile motes, 19.22 exotic gases, and 21.74 rare crystals every month. My stations only provide 110.40 minerals, one tenth of what my industry needs...

 

[Nussor]

OK, looks like we are talking different scales here. By 2334 my current empire converts 1150.00 minerals into 594.78 consumer gods, 424.87 alloys, 19.42 volatile motes, 19.22 exotic gases, and 21.74 rare crystals every month. My stations only provide 110.40 minerals, one tenth of what my industry needs...

Woah, what is going on? What's your net alloy income and fleet power? Those numbers really surprise me. Doesn't look like a tall game to me, at least. I have +85 net alloys each month and 10k fleet power at 2300.