The Problem With Marches...

[dstarsboy]

Just wanted to point out an issue with the 60 BT March thingee...

I started a game as Mantua and, as mentioned, made a march out of Papal States. I gave them enough provinces to keep them below 60BT but keep them fairly wealthy. (of course, the main reason to march Papal States is to keep good catholic relations, prevent everyone from hating me and prevent them from popping up elsewhere).

However, they were useless. I think their force limit went from 17 to 21. Giving 4k more troops to my ally is fine but not worth the poor relations and receiving no income.

To make "marching" even more pointless, for around 20 years I had them as a march they never fielded an army larger than 14k troops.

After this failed experiment, I suffered the -200 relations to convert them back to a vassal and I'm even more at a loss of what the point of marches are, as this was the single scenario where I would have found them useful.

 

[inche Lautaro]

As Prussia I have a Hansa march, they have superb fleet and 40k army size (influence at full and 50% more man power policy). They rock. I'm able to win all my wars with no ally's help thanks to them.

 

[dstarsboy]

As Prussia I have a Hansa march, they have superb fleet and 40k army size (influence at full and 50% more man power policy). They rock. I'm able to win all my wars with no ally's help thanks to them.

Are you sure they're under 60BT with a 40k army? They might have an near identical army without being a march, not to mention likely giving you a few ducats per month.

 

[gaius valerius]

You granted them this independence and granted them ability to become richer and more powerful than they were as a vassal, and in return for that, they should be MORE unruly and turn on their overlord? Does that make more sense? Given the alternative is to keep them weak and take their income, I can see why they would be upset with you...

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Open up a history book and you'll find plenty examples of unruly vassals/underlings turning on overlords - its a rule rather than an exception in history. You grant someone the ability to become richer and more powerful and you believe they should remain PLEASED with licking your butt? I can see why in time that would upset them, especially if an able ruler was to lead them, my first policy would be to get rid of the overlord altogether. The granting of independance was often just the first step to open revolt. You think the PLC did a good job trying to buy over the Zaphorozie Cossacks and they traded them for the Russians out of gratitude? Or that the Dukes of Burgundy became belligerent towards the French king out of gratitude over having been allowed to grow so powerful? When an overlord shows signs of weakness the underlings will as a rule expand their power, whether amongst states or even internally amongst the nobility.

 

[jackers]

Just to chip in and say that I think marches are great. People that are whining are just that - whiners.

When playing as Burgundy I released Nevers on day 1, fed them the 3 provinces and gave them march status. I've fed them to about 50 basetax over 200 years (ie no power to liege malus). They are the most wonderful attack dog I could ask for, helping me partition France with ease. Fantastic ideas (maybe only in EVE though??). When people have problems with their marches is most likely down to one of the following: bad planning (not anticipating where to expand - and where to defend), bad governance (feeding them too large, neighbouring heretic religion) and/or bad choice of subject march (ie wrong ideas, worthless land, bad terrain). They are a static frontier or a beachhead on another continent area. Use them for what they are designed and they will serve you extremely well!

The best marches I have found so far. I am sure there are other great ones too.

Finland(!!!!) - as Russia/Sweden
Georgia/Circassia - as Ottomans/Russia
Wallachia/Moldovia - as Commonwealth/Russia/Ottomans
Pommerania/Brandenburg/Teutonic - as Sweden
Normandy/Britanny - as UK
Afghanistan(!!!) - as Mughals/Timurids/Persia/India/Russia/Ottomans
Tlemclen - as Spain/Portugal
Dai Vet - as Ming/Attuthyar

 

[-Malovane-]

Are you sure they're under 60BT with a 40k army? They might have an near identical army without being a march, not to mention likely giving you a few ducats per month.

They usually take +available mercenary ideas, which increases force limit a great deal. With that, and a healthy trade income, they can pop out large numbers of troops. Hmm, yeah - awesome march.

 

[yerm]

Never thought of a Hansa march; I guess I'm too greedy to give away those trade centers. My favorite thing in that area was to give ALL the islands (from Gotland to Iceland, depending) to a vassal/march so I don't have to deal with them. Seems like an ideal set up for them.