The Problem With Marches...

[dstarsboy]

My playing style is to keep my vassals around for the long term and mutually help each other in a nice cooperative way, so I thought MARCHES was a feature made so perfectly for me.

But I was wrong.

The problem with marches is that you can only increase your relations with them to +100, not +200.

So, after even minor feeding, with their bonus manpower and force limits, they start to grow this "power relative to liege" negative modifier and they start to get hostile toward me. I can't seem to get my relations up to where they view me in a friendly way.

My only choice of course, is to try and convert them back to a vassal at a -200 relations hit, so a huge war ensues and I immediately regret ever clicking on the march button in the first place.

Are marches intended to be tiny opms or something? Getting them to the point where they're relatively useful "as marches" means you risk losing them.

 

[birincikalite]

Yeah I don't think they should be like that.
If any dev reads this : Any special reasons beside trying not to make them too abuseable/strong that I can't think top off my head for limiting relations to 100? If not, I think it should be removed.
I see marches could be useful on nations like Albania, though they are too weak to make it efficient.
I don't know, haven't tried yet but if they were so strong guess the forum would be filled up with march complaint threads so.

 

[Amroth]

I expect there supposed to be rather crap or there taking the idea of a march very seriously and they are meant to be a small blockade between you and an enemy that wont be disappearing at any point or an area that you have no intent on being in ever.

 

[dstarsboy]

Yeah, on top of that Marches don't help you with rebels that pop up like normal vassals do (I found out later you have to explicitly give them Military Access, which is weird).

Marches seem to just be nothing more than allies on steroids, so I can see why most people avoid them in favor of vassals.

 

[solidprice]

You get bonuses to forcelimits, defensiveness, and manpower. like what, 15%? And its lost it at 60 BT or above.
idk... PD might need some more incentives for marches.
here are a few(not all!) ideas devs can pick to boost them and get people marching on! :

+1% attrition for enemies
+5% army morale
+5% naval morale
+5% discipline
+5% infantry combat ability.
+1 leader without upkeep
+1 army tradition per year.
+100% prestige and/or AT won in battles
-25% land leader recruitment cost.
-5% military tech and/or idea cost.
+1 military MP per month being a march
-20-30% military MP cost for military buildings.
rulers of marches would have a higher bias for more points in military.

just suggestions. not saying to add them all! (but that would get people using them....)
As it stands your vassal only a few more men and make foes waste time on your vassal longer. big woop.
not enough for the extra drawbacks gained as a march.

 

[User4035]

The marches Get pretty significant bonus's to military.

They are designed to be under 60base tax.

Marches or vassals: you shouldn't let your subjects get bigger and stronger than you.


Typically you want to pick marches that have military idea sets. Such examples are:
Brandenburg
Poland
Moldavia
Ryzan

Next consideration for a march is to pick it on a border with your strongest rival that you don't expect to outright destroy anytime soon. If war happens with this big rival then the first provinces to get occupied are the marches. Thus saving you war exhaustion.

 

[Incompetent]

I'd be OK with marches if
1. they didn't use up a diplo slot (maybe some separate limit on number of marches, like there is for client states)
2. you couldn't revoke march without breaking the vassalisation completely.

Number 1 is essential for people to use marches the way they are intended - diplo slots are simply too precious to waste on tiny buffer states. Number 2 would mean that number 1 is not too exploitable.

 

[Freudia]

Marches or vassals: you shouldn't let your subjects get bigger and stronger than you.

The thing is that it's very easy to be well above 60 base tax when you hit that 60 base tax limit on marches. Europe is full of 8+ Base Tax provinces, for example. So even when you hit that 60 base tax limit, your marches are still significantly smaller and in some cases too weak to be relevant.

 

[hashinshin]

Marches need -10% technology costs on military so they can remain reasonably useful on non-western powers.

 

[RobRoy3]

Typically you want to pick marches that have military idea sets. Such examples are:
Brandenburg
Poland
Moldavia
Ryzan

To be honest, those four nations would serve better as vassals, in any situation I can envision. The only exception might be Moldavia, for a HAB or TUR player who is focusing in the opposite direction and expects that border to be static.

 

[ahyangyi]

To be honest, those four nations would serve better as vassals, in any situation I can envision. The only exception might be Moldavia, for a HAB or TUR player who is focusing in the opposite direction and expects that border to be static.

So, to conclude, the March (the kind of vassal) and the March (the unique building) are both meant to be built in a static frontier?

 

[artemis667]

So, after even minor feeding, with their bonus manpower and force limits, they start to grow this "power relative to liege" negative modifier and they start to get hostile toward me. I can't seem to get my relations up to where they view me in a friendly way.

You don't want marches to be so big and powerful relative to you. Take Moldavia as compared to Poland - I think 3 provinces, compared to a dozen or so, with a few more once Poland takes Gdansk and annexes Masovia. About a one to five ratio which is probably ideal - the march can provide an extra punch in war, but it's clear who the senior partner is.

If you're trying to make the march bigger than that, you're kind of breaking the purpose of them.

 

[StatikShocker]

they would be more worthwhile if they didn't cost a diplo relation, however...

you could then turn the whole earth into a march swarm. for free. so that wouldn't work.

 

[in heaven]

I dont get one thing, why is PI increasing amount of things that uses diplo slots, but does not increase amount of diplo slots we can get? Those small buffer states are useless when they use diplo slot, because instead of small march using 1 diplo slot, you can simply get huge ally... Marches should have their own limit.

 

[User29]

The problem with marches is that you can only increase your relations with them to +100, not +200.

From the patch notes:

- Only vassals and unions get +200 relation improvement cap, no other subjects

 

[Freudia]

If you're trying to make the march bigger than that, you're kind of breaking the purpose of them.

Okay, so they have no purpose then. You can solidify your frontiers just as well with forts on a static boundary, and that's much cheaper than a diplo relation, considering that military tech points is the stat point that's overabundant now.

 

[Zqrfmb]

I've only used marches for specific circumstances, namely when I was able to diplovassalize all the states in arabia and the levant as songhai, but I refused to own territory outside of africa, thus I marched them to get a bit more use, and also once when I diplovassalized the papal state and made it a march for the sake of having a battle-pope under my command. I suppose if I wanted to deal with the maghreb indirectly, I'd make marches of morocco, tlemcen, or tunis and let them have it, but whenever I find myself in that area, I want their land for myself.

 

[Varesz]

+1 problem:
If you have an HRE prince set as March and the emperor passes the Revoke Privilegia reform (and you're not the emperor!) overlorship shifts to the Emperor! They won't leave the HRE unlike a normal vassal would do if his overlord is not an HRE member/emperor.

 

[AurochsAway]

+1 problem:
If you have an HRE prince set as March and the emperor passes the Revoke Privilegia reform (and you're not the emperor!) overlorship shifts to the Emperor! They won't leave the HRE unlike a normal vassal would do if his overlord is not an HRE member/emperor.

Normal vassals won't leave the HRE automatically either. The question is whether marches share the vassal malus towards reforms.

 

[clykke]

I've been trying to create a march out of my single vassal. I have no idea how to do it.