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GOLANX

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Gene modification faces several usability problems that really harm its utility and in particular Bio Ascension that relies on it.

20210919145107_1.jpg


as you can see in this Screenshot by using bio ascension i have created several different Variations of my species for every habitat preferance, however modifying them is complicated if i want to apply a new template its often easier to change them all to the same template as you can see one variation has 1000+ creating individual variations for each habitability type would be prohibitively time consuming and difficult.
20210919145219_1.jpg20210919145246_1.jpg
this is further complicated when it comes to having multiple species in your empire which is easily built up through migration pacts and conquest. migration pacts arent self contained either if empire A has a migration pact with Empire B which has a Migration Pact with Empires C which has pops conquered from Empire D, Empire A even though only having a migration Pact with Empire B will have pops from species of all of the empires as they spread to each empire and then to Empire A, this invariably means for many empires (the ones that arent gennocidal or gestalts that cannot integrate other species) diversity is a thing that happens even in an empire that consumes pops to reproduce or is very founder species Centric as the Goa'uld (all non gould are slaves)

20210919145759_1.jpg


the Issue is further compounded by a screen for applying templates that doesn't give a lot of information, i don't know what each planet is doing when i have 20+, i barely have an idea when im up to 10, i can't sort by the planets so i have to go by subspecies then planet, its too much work and effort to try to split up the templates by habitat preferance and then specialize.
20210919152242_1.jpg

when im finally done with the template i have a special project that ties up my research for years, and i can only do them one at a time, without queuing.

Furthermore as the Screen gets filled with more and more species and subspecies it creates terrible lag that further contributes to a intolerance to deal with the system, in acquiring these screenshots i found several seconds were often necessary to progress a template or even scroll through my species list.

The vision i have for Genetic Ascension is one where you have pops perfectly adapted to each habitat, specialized to each Planets needs, using the custom traits to maximize the productivity of your planets, seamlessly converting your pops to fill the needs of your planets, ideally converting your pops to fill the needs of their jobs, so that my technicians are always ingenious and my Entertainers Always Charismatic, like "A Brave New World".

What we've got makes that dream a distant prospect, its no wonder its considered inferior to Synthetic Ascension, Synthetic Ascension's strength is in its simplicity, the Complexity of Gene Ascension's potential can't be realized resulting in generic species that aren't any more specialized or maybe even less specialized than its competition, Synth Ascended can modify their template as much as they want without worry about habitability or multiple species that further complicate the process.

Suggestion:

First i think Climate Preference must be addressed as in the first screenshot you can see it entirely plagues the Species Screen with something that ultimately isn't very relevant, to what i want to do in this Screen. So first part is that Glandular Acclimation (the tech that gives habitability modification) should be locked behind engineered evolution as long as you have the Utopia DLC, and otherwise should be weighted and marked as a "rare" tech. I'm doing this for 2 reasons, the first is that it is too easy of an alternative to Terraforming, by locking it thus terraforming should be more relevant (im sure some of you have seen the terraforming megathread in the main forums), while Gene Ascension will still get it as their preferred tool for solving the problem of mismatched Habitability. the Second is that i would buff the Glandular Acclimation technology to provide a "Universal" Habitability Preference, it certainly shouldn't be cluttering up your species screen. this Habitability Preference, should also provide a Bonus to Habitability Traits from genetics, I would like to see that combined it will provide the only path to over 100% Habitability, so that picking Traits like Robust and Adaptive are still a positive and thing you want to do with gene ascension.

Second is for converting the Genetic modification Special Project into a expansion of the Assimilation Mechanic, Assimilation will cause pops to be targeted for assimilation, rather than pulling them out of work it should simply apply a modifier that disables their output while they are being assimilated (notably this just means the pops that will be Assimilated Next and not every pop in line to be ascended), this should prevent major economic disruptions from the assimilation process (its why they use a special project now). Furthermore with Genetic Modification you will have the ability to either Assimilate a Species empire wide or by Planet. empire wide modification occurs through the species Screen, and can also be used for updates to particular Subspecies. Planetary Assimilation occurs through the planet population Screen allowing the player to apply custom templates to specific planets, taking advantage of the specialization that can be achieved through Gene Traits to improve productivity through specialization. ultimately the biggest thing that comes out of this change is the seamless modification progress that doesn't require active repeated input from the player.

*Templates are still created in the Species Screen even if applied on the planet level*

Third there should be 2 methods of dealing with Diversity for Genetic ascended Empires, the first method, Uniform Genetic Standards, is to assimilate them all into your main species similar to Synth Ascension this technique eliminates diversity making it easier to control the genetics of your Empire, this method cannot be used by Xenophile Empires as the process innately destroys the diversity that xenophiles celebrate. the Second Method, Diverse Genetic Benefits, is the Method Favored By Xenophiles, while retaining diverse Species Representation, it allows the traits of templates to be shared among all species, Xenophobes cannot Use this method while including their main species. Thirdly, Slaver Empires gain the option to apply different Methods based on whether pops are Enslaved or Free allowing them to better control their slave populations and not treat them as the same as Free Genetically.
Picking Uniform Genetic Standards Will significantly improve the rate at which Modification Projects occur, and provides an additional Trait Point.
Picking Diverse Genetic Benefits will cause the modification projects to remain slow, but will provide each species a Free Trait that no longer consumes a trait pick this trait can only come from their original genetic Template,

Fourth Medical Workers provide +1 Assimilating pops at a time, this should apply with any form of assimilation not just Gene Modification, although Gene Modification may occur more frequently. Medical workers may additionally be a requirement for above 100% habitation (coinciding with its innate habitation bonus) so that their usefulness is not reduced as the game continues, Engineered Evolution may be set up to raise the limit on Gene clinics to 2. allowing 8 pops to be modified at a time and a maximum of 120% Habitability bonus or 130% while also buffing the base habitability buff given by medical workers.

Conclusion: by fixing up Genetic Modification to be more simple and user friendly it can be more usable by players, and used for specialized roles. while this may not solve all of Genetic Ascensions Problems it should go a long way.
 
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Bosparan

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Hm, good points here in this thread.
So lets spread some heresy ;)

So, how about this:
With "Glandular Acclimation" researched and on the gene ascension path, all default Preferences automatically convert to a "Universal preference".
each pop then has the preference of its current planet. If they move to a different climate, they get a temporary debuff to output until they acclimatize.

One template for all climates.

The next thing that keeps bugging me is ... when I consider this ascension path, I always think about hive swarms and their specializations.
I'd have a dedicated researcher subspecies, a dedicated miner subspecies, etc.
Not only should they prefer the jobs that they are good at - unsure whether the system already does that, expecting not so - but I would also prefer being able to set the distribution over my ratio (say 5% Rulers, 15% Researchers, 30% Artisans, 50% Workers).
Workers would get max strength, Researchers max brains, etc.

Which now that I think about it - and forgive my ramblings - could then be boiled down to:
Remove all output specialization traits from the races, instead give a flat bonus and a temporary penalty when switching jobs.
Then we could reduce the total number of trait points and focus modding to the role/environment unspecific aspects (Leader age, unruly, etc.).

Another thing that never made sense to me is the Strong trait and soldiers. Now I don't know about some egalitarian republic (why would they go for elitist gene modding anyway?), but as a Hive Mind, I sure would specialize my soldiers for extra muscle anyway, no matter the regular baseline of my people ...
 
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GhostDanny

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Tombworld preference is currently the universal preference (well effectively), I say make tombworld preference similar to Gaia preference but for tombworlds.
So that universal preference is actually good.

Where it just give 80% to ALL worlds, including tomb worlds.
Or maybe tomb worlds 60% (as there is also a tomb world tech for 20% habitability.
And maybe even a 20% for machine and hive worlds, to show your species can survive pretty much any where.

That way robust is pretty much unneeded then as well and can thus be removed.
 

GOLANX

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Tombworld preference is currently the universal preference (well effectively), I say make tombworld preference similar to Gaia preference but for tombworlds.
So that universal preference is actually good.

Where it just give 80% to ALL worlds, including tomb worlds.
Or maybe tomb worlds 60% (as there is also a tomb world tech for 20% habitability.
And maybe even a 20% for machine and hive worlds, to show your species can survive pretty much any where.

That way robust is pretty much unneeded then as well and can thus be removed.
Tomb world preference can only happen via an event, it can't be applied through genetic modification so I see no reason why it should be nerfed. Most empires would use the Universal preference which should still have a penalty on tomb worlds. Tomb worlds are pretty rare so this won't be a huge issue but it would be a great place to use the robust trait.

Machine and hive worlds is an interesting thought, +20% there and +30% from robust, your pops wouldn't love it but they could live with it.

I'd rather not remove robust as I suggested you could use it to get +130% Habitability and use the bonuses you would get if your inverted the negatives into positives, it would also be useful for the not so hospitable planets.

If you did the math over 100% habitability would be -30% pop upkeep and amenities Usage, +15% pop growth Speed and productivity at maximum, all for using Robust.
 

GhostDanny

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AI species starting on tombworlds also have tomb world preference, which can be an unfair advantage especially with the Ketlings which also start fully psionic!
Without being tied to the Psionic ascension path.

Removing Robust, because it basically combines several existing traits any way, gives those other traits actually a reason to be picked.
Maybe Bio ascension would lower the gene point costs on a lot of traits?
And with the addition of Universal Preference, the habitability isn't as needed.

For the same reason with Robust, I do also believe the Lithoid habitability bonus is way too strong.
It's essentially Robust combined with extremely adaptive for no cost!
 

Millbot

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I've suggested this before. We should get a policy option where you can passively have pops modded to a designated template. The policy could consumer a certain amount of society research and only mod a few pops at a time, so that the gene mod project still has value. This would some some complaints people have. If I setup migration treaties and then get way ahead of everyone and bio ascend. I can have my new bio ascension founder species as a template that all incoming founder species get slowly converted to. This might also somewhat solve the lag that is the species window.

I'd have to look at specifics because I'm not sure exactly how much gene modding the AI is doing, but maybe have some thresholds. If it's only one species and it's not xenophobic douchebag, the AI will have up to 5 unique sub-species. As you get more species in an empire past a certain number, the AI becomes less and less keen on having subspecies because it now how multiple species that can be tailored for stuff. So an AI empire with 5+ species, won't bother having sub-species and use the policy to phase out the ones it doesn't prefer.

Finally, we need to talk about the mess that is xenocompatibility. We definitely, need something that make it less of an issue. I'm going to suggest the idea that maybe when you get a new crossbreed between species that would be considered base species (not sub or halfbreeds), the game only creates one crossbreed species per match up. That way if someone has xenocompatibility, a human species and blorg pops. The game won't decide to create 20 different half-blorgs and another 20 different half-humans. It will create one half human pop template and one half blorg pop template ever. If the player wants more templates they'll have to make them and deal with the consequences.
 

evilcat

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Other solution:
Switch all your species into prefered climat yours and terraform all planets into your favorite climat. You can terraform colonized worlds.
Slap robust on every specie in your empire, 30% from robust +20% from technology + some geneclinic and you will be fine.
Terraform all your planets into gaia, 10% happiness +10Resources + some planet capacity (pop growth) It is not bad for single perk.
Use specie law breading forbiden (population control) but switch it on for good species. Yes pops will be unhappy, but only bad one and not numerouse.

But.. it would be nice if we can dismantle robot species 1 by 1 for alloys. The robots also are swarmining specie list and we conquere more.

Some other ideas:
Add empire policy, desired main specie dominance, where we can pick the ration like 100%-10% of our main specie. So we can pick slider which will favour our specie as next pop. There could be a twist that picking extreme will make other specie happy or not.

Buff Clone Vast (reduce upkeep) so we can use clone vats for pop control

Buff Biological Ascension perks to provide 4 points, so we can add that robust more often.
 
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GOLANX

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Other solution:
Switch all your species into prefered climat yours and terraform all planets into your favorite climat. You can terraform colonized worlds.
Slap robust on every specie in your empire, 30% from robust +20% from technology + some geneclinic and you will be fine.
Terraform all your planets into gaia, 10% happiness +10Resources + some planet capacity (pop growth) It is not bad for single perk.
There should be more than one way of solving a problem, for a Bio Ascension empire that solution would be genetic Manipulation, an non bio ascended empire would use terraforming.
Use specie law breading forbiden (population control) but switch it on for good species. Yes pops will be unhappy, but only bad one and not numerouse.
I know that genocide can solve every problem in this game but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be non genocide options.
But.. it would be nice if we can dismantle robot species 1 by 1 for alloys. The robots also are swarmining specie list and we conquere more.

Some other ideas:
Add empire policy, desired main specie dominance, where we can pick the ration like 100%-10% of our main specie. So we can pick slider which will favour our specie as next pop. There could be a twist that picking extreme will make other specie happy or not.

Buff Clone Vast (reduce upkeep) so we can use clone vats for pop control
Clone Vat upkeep is fine if anything bio ascended Farmers should produce more food.
Buff Biological Ascension perks to provide 4 points, so we can add that robust more often.
That would be nice.


Play the way I do and stop complaining about bad gameplay mechanics, misses the point of this forum, I want more options not less. Bio Ascension as it is now is just bad Synthetic Ascension, might as well use synth Ascension and skip the horrible laggy Species screen that would take me an hour to do what your suggesting, and then come back every hour to fix all the templates on the good species. I don't want bad synth Ascension, I want Genetic Ascension to be good and use the unique mechanics of gene modification without trying to copy what synth Ascension does poorly.
 

Millbot

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Not only does the "play the way I do and stop complaining," miss the point of this forum. The species menu becoming essentially unusable and genetic modification becoming a futile attempt to keep things under control. Aren't things where "learn to play" is even remotely acceptable because these are two problems where the design means you can't even use features of the game past a certain point.

Also player tactics for avoiding issues, are usually things the AI will never do. So that won't solve the issue if it's one of those things that is a performance drag or an issue that drags the AI down into further mediocrity. So you kind of need people to voice the complaints and suggestions, so that you know what issues exist, which ones are seriously hampering play enjoyment and what they might like (granted this forum is a representation of the whole Stellaris playerbase). Heck, Paradox can only hire some many people for running this game, so player feedback could result in them coming up with ideas they otherwise would have never thought of and this doesn't mean those ideas are always straight rips of player suggestions.
 
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Archael90

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This is great mod that could be tweaked and serve as vanilla feature.
This looks good. I’ve always thought gene modification should be more “decide what traits to unlock and the game/your pops do the rest.” One template per species can be interpreted as meaning these are the traits that have been researched, but it’s not necessarily the case that every pop has all of them.

Of course the game will display my researchers as having the strong trait but I can imagine that pops only actually pick up modifications that are relevant to them. If this type of model were adopted into the base game this could be done explicitly.
 

Archael90

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Additionally bio ascension could get access to new tab, simmilar to species, where they can create their templates, but instead of making template for each species, bio ascended empires would create templates for specific jobs/stratum/species, and would be aalowed to use all known bio traits, with plantoid/lithoid hybrids etc. All affected pops (like template for all workers, or just miners) would automatically, immidately, get traits from said template when they get job (those pops would never change jobs (because they would be best fitted for that)). Creating template would cost soc research, and maybe unity/food/ec, but aplying it would not.
 
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How about a tech allowing a planetary decision to auto-gene mod species to a more optimum template, based on the climate preferences and job? There should be a cost and time lag per pop to make the modification, similar to the time it takes a new pop to be grow or be constructed. This would allow a planet to slowly, but continuously adjust to the local conditions, even if there was migration into the planet.

The game would have to provide some additional information on the type of templates being used on the planet so the player has a sense of whether or not this is working effectively, or if different templates are needed. I wouldn't want to have to drill down and hover over each pop, one at a time, to see what template they have.
 

GOLANX

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Mar 17, 2021
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How about a tech allowing a planetary decision to auto-gene mod species to a more optimum template, based on the climate preferences and job? There should be a cost and time lag per pop to make the modification, similar to the time it takes a new pop to be grow or be constructed. This would allow a planet to slowly, but continuously adjust to the local conditions, even if there was migration into the planet.

The game would have to provide some additional information on the type of templates being used on the planet so the player has a sense of whether or not this is working effectively, or if different templates are needed. I wouldn't want to have to drill down and hover over each pop, one at a time, to see what template they have.
I suppose a planetary decision would be 1 way to make that work, and might be easier to code. Decisions don't typically open up new screens, and it isn't connected to the population screen which would be much better to get the information you need. Nobody wants to drill down pop by pop though that's completely understandable, and is part of why I didn't suggest that feature even though you could benefit even more if you had that ability.
 

rcf31415

Corporal
Apr 22, 2021
28
53
What I want is to decouple species modification from a special project. If you have a gene clinic on a planet it should modify your species one pop at a time. when designing a species you should be able to set preferred jobs and just let the system run updating pops slowly to match whatever they are working on and especially with the genetic ascension perks just auto change the climate preference to match the planet.
 
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