The problem with Basques, Equal Succession and the AI

Relrye

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This issue is also causing a 867 campaign issue where one certain Onneca, who is married to an Umayyad prince, semi-regularly inherits the crown because of Equal Succession and thus turn the Kingdom over to the Andalusians.

This happened to me me like 2 days ago... I was like WTF the AI just decided to 1) Give the Kingdom to his daughter in a non-Matrial marriage (Dynasty lose the crown... WHAT!), Married to a Muslim (Religion lose the crown... WHAT!)... and that BEING part of a Male Preferred religion WITHOUT that heir being better (skills/traits wise) to any of her brothers O_O'

I wrote a post called I just saw the AI do the dumbest move EVER lol
 
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ulix

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By 5-10% chance of adoption I don't mean every basque ruler has a 5-10% chance. But that the chance for Basque top-level realms over a whole game (400-600 years) is 5-10% to adopt it.
Because this is very obviously far more realistic than Italy being conquered by the Byzantines, the Danes sustainably spreading Asatru faith in England, the Papacy being destroyed, etc.

The game is a historical sandbox. It's sad that some people's suspension of disbelief hinges so heavily on sexism, that they can't suspend it for this.
But for all the other weird shit that's halfway plausible, that regularly happens and makes the game fun? Sure, you have no problem with it.
 
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King Anund

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By 5-10% chance of adoption I don't mean every basque ruler has a 5-10% chance. But that the chance for Basque top-level realms over a whole game (400-600 years) is 5-10% to adopt it.
Because this is very obviously far more realistic than Italy being conquered by the Byzantines, the Danes sustainably spreading Asatru faith in England, the Papacy being destroyed, etc.

The game is a historical sandbox. It's sad that some people's suspension of disbelief hinges so heavily on sexism, that they can't suspend it for this.
But for all the other weird shit that's halfway plausible, that regularly happens and makes the game fun? Sure, you have no problem with it.
I will reply since it appears that you are accusing me of a sexist bias here.

Counties conquered, Religions imposed and Dynasties rising and falling out of power are political changes that happened historically and ones that mostly refer to a political world. This changes do not challenge the overall structure of things and the mentality, it only changes the people who are ruling on the top. Also this things have a context and an explanation for happening in-game that is quite easy to reconstruct, for example, some character got a claim, a Holy War was waged or someone inherited a title (and we can figure out how it got to there). We can track the process of how that current situation became to be.

The same must be true for the enacting of Equal Succession, it needs to be born out of some process that explains how it became to be the norm, something that justifies how and why the mentalities changed, the most obvious example, the rise of a new faith that deems that Women and Men are Equal in dignity and not one subject to the other. That is context. But right now with Basques it just comes out of the blue with no context at all, while their Religion (and thus Society) being as sexist as ever, albeit being a pretty uninteligent strategy for the preservation of the Dynasty in power. If we transfer that to the other examples provided it would be like if the Byzantines became lords of a land without conquering or inheriting it, or England become Asatru even though that religion is dead, or the Papacy disappearing just by itself one random day.

Maybe it is because people does not know much about Basque and Navarrese History but, would have any kind of sense if the kingdom of England became Equal Succession while a Catholic Norman William the Conqueror holds the title? Or Capet France suddenly abandoning Salic Law for one that allows a Matrilineal Line of Succession while the King is also a Catholic French? Obviously not, he reason being that they were like that historically, and that kind of change would require a societal and mentality change as well. They why Navarra isn't worthy of being represented with the same historical realism that England and France are, since its historical succession is as well known as theirs?

The fun of this game is being able to revive and interact with History and see it change in a way that is realistic and with some sense so that you as a player can feel that the world is alive and that you are changing things and having an impact on it. There is no fun in random senseless things happening with no context to explain how things became what they are.
 
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ulix

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I don't necessarily accuse you of sexist bias, I accuse some here of not being able to suspend their disbelief when it comes to sexism, meaning that they need the sexism of the time to shine through to make the game feel authentic for them. With other weird shit that is entirely inauthentic (reformed pagans... etc.) they have no problem.

It's kind of the same issue that pops up with some fantasy stories:
"Oh no, the women in this medieval world can be warriors, how unrealistic. Only men should be able to fight literal dragons, that's more realistic. # Feminism"
 
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Meneye

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I don't necessarily accuse you of sexist bias, I accuse some here of not being able to suspend their disbelief when it comes to sexism, meaning that they need the sexism of the time to shine through to make the game feel authentic for them. With other weird shit that is entirely inauthentic (reformed pagans... etc.) they have no problem.

It's kind of the same issue that pops up with some fantasy stories:
"Oh no, the women in this medieval world can be warriors, how unrealistic. Only men should be able to fight literal dragons, that's more realistic. # Feminism"
It breaks the AI, it's blatantly false, and it even makes the Basque people themselves feel bad. This isn't some sort of sexism thing, there's a lot of reasons why it shouldn't be here.
 
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ulix

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If it breaks the AI (especially in terms of marriage) that is an AI problem. I got a mod for it.

As I said, I agree it should happen rarely. Just like Muslims conquering Rome from the Pope. Or the Crusader States conquering Mecca & Medina.

Actually, a lot more rarely. Because I've already seen both of these examples very often (I think there's no Jihads right now).
 
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ZoCurious

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This problem has still not been solved. King Gartzia changes Male-Preference to Equal Partition as soon as the game starts and as it happens, the eldest child of the eldest child of his eldest child is an Ummayad prince. To see a Muslim Navarra in every 867 start is absurd, and rather frustratingly so. To make matters worse, this appears to be the only instance in which the AI bothers to change gender laws.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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This problem has still not been solved. King Gartzia changes Male-Preference to Equal Partition as soon as the game starts and as it happens, the eldest child of the eldest child of his eldest child is an Ummayad prince. To see a Muslim Navarra in every 867 start is absurd, and rather frustratingly so. To make matters worse, this appears to be the only instance in which the AI bothers to change gender laws.
Holy Necromancy Batman.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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On a tangent node, I never really understand how both "we already have a thread for that so stop spamming" and "you can't revive a thread this old" are acceptable at the same time. Pretty weird.
I'd guess it's mostly meant to be "we have an *active* thread for that (or a pinned one)", and "please don't resurrect threads that are more than a certain age"?

There's a balance somewhere I suppose, and hopefully we can find it.
 
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On a tangent node, I never really understand how both "we already have a thread for that so stop spamming" and "you can't revive a thread this old" are acceptable at the same time. Pretty weird.
I suppose the idea is that if the topic is recent enough, it is preferable to use the new one, but if the thread is too old, it's preferable to not revive an old thread. Where the sweet spot for "too old" falls is unclear to me, though. Maybe it boils down to individual preference too, with forum-users having incompatible opinions regarding this sort of stuff?
 

King Anund

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I don't know if this thread is considered too old or not. This issue in the threat is still present in the current version though. I am hopeful that with the Culture overhaul with Royal Court it will finally be corrected and we can Basques acting like their Historical counterpart. Certainly this gets to the silly issue described by @ZoCurious where an Ummayyad prince always inherits Navarra in 867.
 
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ZoCurious

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Holy Necromancy Batman.
I purposely replied here to show that this is an old and still unresolved grievance.

One thing other players have not mentioned is that if a Basque character inherits a title, he or she will change that title's succession law to Equal, and the subsequent holders of that title will not change it back to Male-Preference even if they are of another culture. It is beyond annoying.
 
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Werther

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Btw OP was really convincing with good arguments and it was really interesting. I'm glad someone resurected the thread. I'm a little bit sad that all his efforts were vain...
 
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Hichel

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I don't know if this thread is considered too old or not. This issue in the threat is still present in the current version though. I am hopeful that with the Culture overhaul with Royal Court it will finally be corrected and we can Basques acting like their Historical counterpart. Certainly this gets to the silly issue described by @ZoCurious where an Ummayyad prince always inherits Navarra in 867.

It was a great read nevertheless, thank your for the insight. If the AI is a bit reworked for the DLC, it might me a bit clearer on the reasons to change succession besides of "just because it can".

Now, I'm far from Europe and Basque always picked an interest for me on how unique it appears to be, if you don't mind me asking, do you have any book or reference to dive it to get to know more?
 

Sunbro BigBoss

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Two measures that would make things better would be to have the AI be way more reluctant to marry patrilineraly if they have equal succession, and also to have the change to equal succession be much less likely if there's no matrilinearly married possible female heirs, i.e. if the AI does not have a daughter ready to carry on the dynasty, why even change the law?
 
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Sozey

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Couldn't the reason be, that the kingdom of Castile originally was part of the kingdoom Navarra... and Castile was since 1109 ruled by queen Urraca, as queen of her own rights... that could be the reason, that succession was set in this region to "equal"...?
 

King Anund

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Couldn't the reason be, that the kingdom of Castile originally was part of the kingdoom Navarra... and Castile was since 1109 ruled by queen Urraca, as queen of her own rights... that could be the reason, that succession was set in this region to "equal"...?
Queen Urraca became Queen of Castille and Leon because there were no Male heirs for Alfonso VI, her father. If her younger brother, Sancho, hadn't died in the Battle of Uclés she would have never been Queen. That would make it "Male preference" not "Equal" on CK3 terms. Also she is considered to be Castilian in the game, not Basque, even if her dynasty is of Navarrese origin.
 
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Varren

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This problem has still not been solved.

I'd guess there's like a 90% chance that the Basques will stop being a special case once Royal Court comes out and instead become one of many Egalitarian cultures. That should fix the problem.

(Or it could spread the problem across the entire world, but then it should be fixed again after the next patch once everyone notices it.)
 
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King Anund

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I'd guess there's like a 90% chance that the Basques will stop being a special case once Royal Court comes out and instead become one of many Egalitarian cultures. That should fix the problem.

(Or it could spread the problem across the entire world, but then it should be fixed again after the next patch once everyone notices it.)
I really hope they don't make Basques egalitarian though, I know the myth is that but it is just not true. Communal is certainly more close to reality.
 
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