The problem with Basques, Equal Succession and the AI

King Anund

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It's on Wikipedia of course:


Cited source is:
Arrizabalaga, Marie-Pierre (2005). "Succession strategies in the Pyrenees in the 19th century: The Basque case". The History of the Family. 10 (3): 271–292. doi:10.1016/j.hisfam.2005.03.002
The 19th century... And just a 5 minute research is necessary to discredit that claim to the Middle Ages.

The claim of Wikipedia is simply false. Jesús María Usunáriz Garayoa, Mayorazgo, vinculaciones y economías nobiliarias en la Navarra de la Edad Moderna, Iura vasconiae: revista de derecho histórico y autonómico de Vasconia, ISSN 1699-5376, Nº. 6, 2009, págs. 383-424. In Page 387 states that from the Middle Ages Male preference primogeniture was practiced in the Kingdom of Navarra and not just for the Kings.

Iñaki Bazán Díaz, La civilización vasca medieval: vida(s) contidiana(s), mentalidad(es) y cultura(s), Revista internacional de los estudios vascos = Eusko ikaskuntzen nazioarteko aldizkaria = Revue internationale des ètudes basques = International journal on Basque studies, RIEV, ISSN 0212-7016, Vol. 46, Nº. 1, 2001, págs. 105-201. In page 140 has the testimony of Viscayan woman Elvira de Gorizabala in a court case that states that indeed Male preference was practiced:
"because that same father [of Elvira] had a male son to whom according to the Law of Viscaya used and keeped left all of his property and he had the said Elvira and other daughters to whom he left nothing so that from her said father she expected no more than the said 1000 maravedíes [a currency] and that he left for her and he ordered nothing to be given to the rest [of the daughters] because all of his property he had given to his son and he did not consider that he had to leave any property to any daughter if he had an heir"
 
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King Anund

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I have looked on the files of 1.1, recently live on Steam and this issue hasn't been adressed at all. I guess nobody cares because Navarra is the smallest kingdom in Europe so you can erase its History and nothing will happen. I can not imagine how silly it would be to have England, France or Sweden as a Gender Equal Succession kingdom as there is the same evidence of it being practiced as in Navarra as in those kingdoms, none at all and everything against it. This is just sad, I guess the history of the place I am from is not worthy of any realistic representation and Romantic-Nationalistic Myths are more important than academic research and realism.

I don't know what make the Devs take the decision to portray Medieval Basques in that light and to maintain them that way but at least they could add a Game Rule so that those who prefer to not have Nationalistic Fantasies in our games can enjoy Ironman, Achievements and Multiplayer.
 
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AdamRavbar

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The 19th century... And just a 5 minute research is necessary to discredit that claim to the Middle Ages.

The claim of Wikipedia is simply false. [...]

Do you have an account? It'd be mindful to correct the claim; the best way to approach that I think would be to use the "Dubious" tag , and open a discussion with appropriate sources countering the claim on the talk page. (There's no need to put any text inline, since lack of a claim that Basque practiced absolute primogeniture as a rule is an implication that they, in fact, did not, just like everyone else in Europe at the time.) The article in question is Primogeniture, section Absolute primogeniture. It's just irresponsible to keep it this way.

The same claims (citing the same author) also appear on the page Historical inheritance systems.

I just hope this won't trigger some kind of an edit war from some feminist group uninformed on the topic who wants to keep their wishful thinking unchallenged.
 
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Sunbro BigBoss

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It's quite disheartening to see one's own region being distorted. The historical inaccurary could be forgiven if at least it were made to work properly and were interesting, but as of now its most noteworthy effect is having an Umayyad prince inherit Navarra most of the time, which is just silly.
 
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Amaiur of Navarre

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Not only taking succession into account. Navarrese de Jure land toponomy is an aberration.

I've never heard/read anything close to Ipuskoa and its baronies. Please, remove Irún and add San Sebastian and Oiartzun in GIPUZKOA and DURANGO in Vizcaya county. I don't remember exactly how's being named in the game itself.

I don't rememer if Álava is portrayed...though the way to go is VITORIA barony as well.

Evert single time I start a new game playing as my homeland I have to rewrite locations.
 
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Alerias

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For what its worth, the AI switching to Equal if its possible seems largely universal. For my first reformed religion I went with Equal, thinking it could be advantageous and that my vassals would probably stay Male-preference, but they almost all started switching to Equal, which caused me a few headaches. At that point I realized the advantages of patriarchal oppression and decided my future religions would keep women barefoot in the kitchen. :p
 
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jere8184

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This is the same type of thinking that lead to PDX making homosexuality accepted in al-andalus due to a few slander poems.
 
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ulix

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So to get this straight:
There is a scientific source that claims equal succession existed, it just wasn't practiced by the nobility because the nobility was NOT Basque.
Just because the title of the book is something like "in the 19th century", the specific claim is still clearly about medieval times. There are also sources disputing it.

Not sure how anyone can claim one or the other is correct without doubt.

There is no doubt however, that women had considerable power (when compared to other European regions at the time). Found this, for example:
In the Basque country the traditional juridical concepts that have inspired the laws governing succession reflect this obsessive concern with the preservation of the etxeondo. In order to insure the integral transmission of the house with its immovable and movable goods, the rules of succession followed a pattern of strict primogeniture, without distinction between the sexes. 8 The eldest child, male or female, was the natural heir. An individual always belonged to two lineages, but to only one etxe. The real keeper of the lands and goods, however, was not the individual inheritor but rather his or her lineage, azkasi. Thus, in the case of a family where the first born was a daughter, it was she who was recognized as the andregaia, the future inheritor. 9 [...]
Of the twenty-two articles included in this section, only four of them make any mention of the rules governing noble succession. Art. I indicates that in noble homes the eldest male had precedence over the elder female child. Art. I deals only with succession ab intestat: "Dans le maison et héritages nobles, à celui que est décédé sans faire testament, laissant plusieurs enfants, succède le premier enfant mâle, s'il n'y a enfants que d'un mariage." However, in the next article (Art. II), the privilege of masculinity is rejected in favor of the rule of primogeniture: "Mais s'il y a enfants de divers mariages, et du premier n'y a que filles, la fille aînée du premier mariage succède et exclut tous les enfants des autres mariages, posé qu'il y en ait de mâles."12 Thus one sees that even among the nobility of Labourd, the system was not one that totally excluded the female.


Source 8: Jacques Poumarède, Les Successions dans le Sud-ouest de la France au Moyen Age (Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1972), 328-329.
Source 9: José Miguel de Barandiarán, Obras completas, III (Bilbao: La Gran Enciclopedia Basca, 1973), 481-489.
Source 12: The source of the codes cited here is Pierre Haristoy, Recherches historiques sur la Pays Basque, II (Bayonne: E. Lasserre, 1883), 379-559.

The name of the text is "The Remarkable Role of Women in 16th Century French Basque Law Codes ", but of course these laws in the 16th century weren't created in a vacuum, they were based on older Basque traditions.

So in other words, it's not really clear how it was handled, but it seems clear that at least allowing them to choose equal succession from early on seems perfectly reasonable.
 
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King Anund

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There is a scientific source that claims equal succession existed, it just wasn't practiced by the nobility because the nobility was NOT Basque.
Just because the title of the book is something like "in the 19th century", the specific claim is still clearly about medieval times. There are also sources disputing it
I've had access to the article of Arrizabalaga. The topic of the article is the changes in succession in the 19th century, she mentions that during the previous centuries (at least since the 16th century) that equal succession was practiced but doesn't go deep into it or how of by who was practiced. She just mentions it as some sort of context to the topic of her article.

Nobles are well documented. Even in times where it could be reasonably claimed that they were Basque or at least native to the contemporary Basque Country and Navarra (Arista and Jimena Dynasties in Navarra, and the house of Vasconia (768-1032)) they definetly did not practice Equal Succession as can be seen by analyzing the holders of the titles and their familes. Is worth noting that there is no Female title holder ever for this earlier period, in fact the first female holders are in the XIII century, and because they had no surviving Male brothers.
There is no doubt however, that women had considerable power (when compared to other European regions at the time). Found this, for example:
http://euskararenjatorria.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/R.M.Frank_._Basque_Law_Code_Papers1.pdf
In fact the text you quote confirms that Male preference was the norm
Art. I indicates that in noble homes the eldest male had precedence over the elder female child.
There you have it.
However, in the next article (Art. II), the privilege of masculinity is rejected in favor of the rule of primogeniture: "Mais s'il y a enfants de divers mariages, et du premier n'y a que filles, la fille aînée du premier mariage succède et exclut tous les enfants des autres mariages, posé qu'il y en ait de mâles."
And this refers to another situation where the owner of the house has children from different marriages. It actually says that "IF ONLY has daughters from the first marriage (the one that has a better right to succession) then the eldest daughter of that first marriage should inherit".

It must be noted that all property acquired via marriage was deemed right of conquest in the Navarrese Law, so if you didn't give each son of the previous marriage their part when one of the spouses died they could claim rights to the property you got via the second marriage by right of conquest.
The name of the text is "The Remarkable Role of Women in 16th Century French Basque Law Codes ", but of course these laws in the 16th century weren't created in a vacuum, they were based on older Basque traditions.
That may be so. However, it was not unheard of for new things to be added in 16th century Codification and make them pass as if they were "immemorial custom" so we have to take what is said there with a grain of salt. For example, in the Fuero Nuevo of Biscay of 1526 all naturals of Biscay are set to be noblemen, while nothing of it is in the Old Fuero and certainly wasn't the case for the previous centuries.

Still, all of those customs refer to peasant families and property, not to nobility (the characters represented in the game). This "primogeniture" thing started as a way to avoid the partition that peasants were supposed to do (Primogeniture was a Monopoly of nobility) by granting all the property in the Marriage Contracts as a dowry to the couple you wanted to get the property while the parents still were living and by making the young couple commit to take care of those parents, who now were not the owners of house and property. More than a succession law it was a Marriage Dowry custom to avoid the actual inheritance law.

It is also known that this "Equal Primogeniture" was practiced only in the French part of the Basque Country (which isn't even represented as Basque in the game) and not in Navarre or the Spanish Basque Country (which is represented as Basque in game).
So in other words, it's not really clear how it was handled, but it seems clear that at least allowing them to chose equal succession from early on seems perfectly reasonable.
No it is not, at least not for the AI, because right now what we have in the game is a Kingdom of Navarre and Duchy of Vasconia that always follows Equal Succession despite those states clearly not practicing that kind of succession ever in their History. Navarrese Medieval History is my area of expertise and sources are quite clear on this topic.

However, to have Equal succession as an option available just for the Human player is completely fine, but as long as the AI stays historical.
 
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Thing is, the game starts Basques off with male preference, and just allows them to switch immediatly. Which is totally fine, considering the historical evidence. It's questionable if the AI does it every time, sure. But the player should definitely have the option.

Edit: I should read till the end :) We both agree then.

I'd argue it should also be an option for the AI though. Just one that it takes very rarely and under special circumstances.
 
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Thing is, the game starts Basques off with male preference, and just allows them to switch immediatly. Which is totally fine, considering the historical evidence. It's questionable if the AI does it every time, sure. But the player should definitely have the option.
Of course, I am not talking about the Player here but about the AI. Basques starts as Male preference but as soon as the AI can (which is when they have 500 prestige and Positive Powerful vassal opinion) they do it discarding all historical realism and messing with the historical succession custom. I created this thread mainly because with this situation right now it is impossible to have a historical game as the Kingdom of Navarra.
 
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Of course, I am not talking about the Player here but about the AI. Basques starts as Male preference but as soon as the AI can (which is when they have 500 prestige and Positive Powerful vassal opinion) they do it discarding all historical realism and messing with the historical succession custom. I created this thread mainly because with this situation right now it is impossible to have a historical game as the Kingdom of Navarra.
So what you're saying is there should just be an AI weight of 0 for Basques to switch to equal succession, but that the option should remain for the player?
 

King Anund

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So what you're saying is there should just be an AI weight of 0 for Basques to switch to equal succession, but that the option should remain for the player?
Mainly yes. It is already working that way for Occitans, Catalans and Aragoneses, who also have access to Equal Gender Law via Visigothic Codes but the AI never enacts it unless their religion is Equal, and they remain with Male preference if the religion is Male dominated. This was also how it was back in CK2.

The option being available for player is fine in my opinion because I think that everyone should be able to play the game as they please. But the AI should remain Male preference so that the ones that want a more historical game can have it.
 
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But then again the game will never stay truly historical, even if you exclude the player. It is a historical sandbox. So why should this be any different to the Ummayads declaring war on France? Never happened in reality (I think, but you can easily construct similar examples), but should it thus not happen in game?

I'd say that equal succession for Basques is likely enough historically (it could have happened, maybe), that the chance of the AI adopting it should be >0. Maybe 5%-10% or something.
 
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King Anund

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But then again the game will never stay truly historical, even if you exclude the player. It is a historical sandbox. So why should this be any different to the Ummayads declaring war on France? Never happened in reality (I think, but you can easily construct similar examples), but should it thus not happen in game?

I'd say that equal succession for Basques is likely enough historically (it could have happened, maybe), that the chance of the AI adopting it should be >0. Maybe 5%-10% or something.
Of course, but Umayyads declaring war on France is plausible. They aleady did it once. The game will become something ahistorical but it has to have some sense to why it has got to that situation, something that makes it not break historical believability and realism. The kings of Navarre adopting Equal Succession is not realistic if they remain the same that they were in History: Catholic Nobles. Another story it would be if they suddenly converted to a Sect that was more Gender Equal, that would be something that would explain why the things changed. In games like this context is everything.

The percentage you give is very high, as 1 of 10 rulers would change to it while from historical rulers 0 to a 100 did it.
 
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