The Prestige Requirement is too D*** High!

[Scotty the Scot]

....For Custom Empire creation

I mean really, it's REALLY difficult to get prestige up to 8000 on a single character. While I understand that creating an Imperial title is not meant to be easy, in a Khiva game I was playing I owned all the territory of the Persian Empire title as well as the rest of the Middle East and still was shy of declaring my Kingdom of Khiva the Empire of Khiva, (I actually wasn't able to declare my Empire until a couple characters later, each time having to start again from low prestige) which I think is a bit ridiculous, especially considering that it's rather easy to create a new Kingdom title.

I think this could be fixed without making it too easy by lowering the prestige requirement to 6000.

 

[Jack_Deth]

And it is too low for Custom Kingdom creation.

 

[Groogy]

It is supposed to be hard and 8 000 is definitely doable without being too hard. I've had characters that reached that amount without me actually trying to farm prestige.
Either way I don't think it should be lowered as 8 000 is a good amount that represents a high roof without being too hard.

 

[nestorius]

I have to say havent really tried it have had 50 000 or so prestige on some characters though they were already emperors many times over is it significantly harder to create empires rather than create a dejure one? I would say that if you can create an empire you should really be able to create a custom one? Or is there a reason for the difference after all we are talking about mostly a cosmetic difference which is from a gameplay perspective actually worse.

 

[DevilSauron]

The main problem with this is that it's much easier to form de jure empire.

 

[keynes2.0]

I would like it if empires were easier to create but more politically unstable. You can leave Charlie's accomplishments in the dust and still not be able to form an empire but if you do form it, it will last 1000 years.

 

[Groogy]

The main problem with this is that it's much easier to form de jure empire.

It's not a problem since its supposed to be harder.

 

[pingouin2ter]

Good for keeping it very difficult.

Historically, when you see how difficult it was for the polish king to be recognized by all as a king, I think it should definitely be on the very difficult side.

 

[DC123456789]

The main problem with this is that it's much easier to form de jure empire.

Isn't that the whole point?

 

[blackchoas]

It's not a problem since its supposed to be harder.

I think what he is saying is that its comparatively too easy to form de jure empires, he isn't complaining that its too hard to form custom empires, he is saying that it should be harder to form regular empires as well since with the gap in difficulty between the two, one has little reason to ever form a custom one and de jure empires might be too simple to form

 

[Mr. Morgenstern]

It is supposed to be hard and 8 000 is definitely doable without being too hard. I've had characters that reached that amount without me actually trying to farm prestige.
Either way I don't think it should be lowered as 8 000 is a good amount that represents a high roof without being too hard.

Well yeah, if you're playing the Norse (and I know you are, Groogy) it's easy to get prestige from raiding and whatnot. For everyone else it's ridiculously hard. You have to either form the Kingdom of Jerusalem as a Catholic or wage holy war non-stop.

 

[DevilSauron]

Isn't that the whole point?

Well but with the current cost of the decision, I just don't see any point in creating custom titles. And it's actually often much better to create de jure empire than custom title, because there is more room for de jure expansion then.

 

[Zolotaya]

The problem lies with neither custom empire creation nor de jure empire creation. The problem is the de jure structure as it exists; no matter the start-date and no matter the level.

The Frisian debate, crusader target selection and title creation all are symptoms that there is something deeper going on.

My hope is that the de jure structure itself is addressed in an upcoming dlc, no matter its official topic.

Edit:

Well but with the current cost of the decision, I just don't see any point in creating custom titles. And it's actually often much better to create de jure empire than custom title, because there is more room for de jure expansion then.

There is a lot of benefit, especially for kingdoms such as Bavaria that straddle multiple de jure empires. There is no de jure empire that allows Bavaria to keep its center de jure Bavaria but a custom title would allow such.

 

[Nyrael]

Well but with the current cost of the decision, I just don't see any point in creating custom titles. And it's actually often much better to create de jure empire than custom title, because there is more room for de jure expansion then.

I am pretty sure that creation of Custom titles being a rare decision is WAD. It is there in case you can't form a de-jure titles for various reasons (cultural, religious or territorial requirements).
It is mostly useful for Empire-tier when your expansions stretch over multiple Empires but never eat them all. When I played with Fatimids, it was easier and cheaper for me to form Empire of Egypt than the Arabian Empire (especially since I decided not to go for some important Arabian territories).

 

[Jorlem]

It's not a problem since its supposed to be harder.

Harder is fine, but the difference between the two is rather absurd. I wouldn't mind if the difficulty of forming de jure empires was raised somewhat.

 

[Arko]

Well but with the current cost of the decision, I just don't see any point in creating custom titles. And it's actually often much better to create de jure empire than custom title, because there is more room for de jure expansion then.

your own custom unique empire worth a bit more than a bland de jure empire don't you think ?

 

[ffff]

Now, a lower cost would be fair if you still had to assimilate it.

 

[SaddestRobots]

I like the big cost. It means you really have to be a notable figure to just pull an empire out of your butt. It also adds a nice plateau point to your expansion. (The thing I appreciate most about Charlemagne is it added more steps and cycles to empire-building. Now there's several "tiers" of empire: absorb neighbors -> claim kingdom -> grow kingdom -> claim empire -> grow baby empire -> set up vassal kings / viceroys -> grow empire to maturity -> set up Imperial Administration -> unleash Blobageddon on the world).

Creating vanilla (de jure) empires should be more expensive to match as well.

I'd also love to see some additional minor perks to make up for the fact that custom empires/kingdoms don't start off with de jure expansion possibilities and are costly to form:
1. Cosmetic: ability to change map color and coat of arms. I do this by hand-editing the save file anyway, but adding a GUI would make it actually accessible to players.
2. Set your current capital (not just the base kingdom's de jure capital) as the custom empire's de jure empire capital.

 

[DorlasAnther]

I like the big cost. It means you really have to be a notable figure to just pull an empire out of your butt. It also adds a nice plateau point to your expansion. (The thing I appreciate most about Charlemagne is it added more steps and cycles to empire-building. Now there's several "tiers" of empire: absorb neighbors -> claim kingdom -> grow kingdom -> claim empire -> grow baby empire -> set up vassal kings / viceroys -> grow empire to maturity -> set up Imperial Administration -> unleash Blobageddon on the world).

Creating vanilla (de jure) empires should be more expensive to match as well.

I'd also love to see some additional minor perks to make up for the fact that custom empires/kingdoms don't start off with de jure expansion possibilities and are costly to form:
1. Cosmetic: ability to change map color and coat of arms. I do this by hand-editing the save file anyway, but adding a GUI would make it actually accessible to players.
2. Set your current capital (not just the base kingdom's de jure capital) as the custom empire's de jure empire capital.

Problem is that whole prestige is just bad.
For example, I had game where I formed custom empire. I was Catholic, surrounded by Christians. So, I could not fight holy wars. Surprisingly, I realized that winning war gives you nothing and winning battles as commander gives you less prestige than hunting. Let me repeat that for you: You become more prestigious by trying to kill stag than by leading your army to victory in war. That means you will not even start wars, because that would make you unable to feast or hunt.
Also, what I found out to be the best way to get prestige is to marry your sisters/daughters to old Rurikid characters. Since they have multiple kingdoms and who knows how many independent duchies, they have lots of family prestige. I got more than 300 prestige from marrying my daughter to Rurikids. So, I married them to old courtiers, invited them to my courts, plotted to kill them (orthodox East Slavic on catholic West Slavic court? Easy) and then married my daughters to another old Rurikid.
I agree that cost for creating your own empire should remain...only if whole prestige is remade. My characters who increased borders of my kingdom will be remembered less than character, who spent his whole life hunting and marrying his sisters and daughters to old Russians. Right now, game doesn´t force you to concentrate on making your king well known and prestigious in logical way, it forces you to do gamey thing like those that I mentioned.

Also, funny thing, when you create titular empire, all your kingdoms except of your main one (from which you create that empire) will become de jure parts of that empire. So, if king of Sicily controlls Africa and Mauretania and creates Empire of Sicily, Africa and Mauretania will be de jure under his empire, but Sicily itself won´t.

 

[BrokenSky]

It is supposed to be hard and 8 000 is definitely doable without being too hard. I've had characters that reached that amount without me actually trying to farm prestige.
Either way I don't think it should be lowered as 8 000 is a good amount that represents a high roof without being too hard.

The annoying thing is when you do that you're character is old and near death and the custom empire is formed Gavelkind, so you need to get 8000 prestige while still being young enough to reliably reign for 10 more years. This might have been fixed though...