• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Jan 20, 2011
645
0
There should be no problem in reaffirming trade union and suffrage rights both, Mr.Bachmann. I also believe we already have a minimum wage and if not such social reforms have been proposed before. So reaffirming that is no problem.

Beyond reaffirming existing safety regulations and perhaps bolstering them, I was under the impression that the provision about unsafe and demeaning labor is referring to forced labor. That is, that prisoners will not be forced to do cruel or unusual labor when given hard labor sentences (not using them for forced hazardous duty or the like).

So I see no problem with the entire document as is. If there needs to be any alterations, it might just be to separate the right of everyone to safe workplaces from the part about forced labor, which applies primarily to the government.

I see nothing vague or corrupt about safety regulations in the private sector, we already have those I thought and those were some of the first social reforms proposed - and were proposed and supported by centrists and pro-business Americans.

The entire document is redundant, and is simply an attempt to build upon the promise to never abolish our social reforms. Considering the moderate position has become for quite some time the leaving of these reforms intact, it is clear the majority of the American people strongly support the idea of these reforms - or the ends to them, such as everyone having healthcare, - as falling under constitutional rights to life, liberty, and opportunity (the pursuit of happiness).

These reforms, and these rights, would only clear more statist barriers such as the inequality of inherited wealth out of the way of free market competition; you can't tell me that you honestly believe a man being healthier because his parents were able to afford better care when he was a child is a factor of his own merit above and beyond the man whose parents could not afford good care? Differences in starting positions have allowed the undeserving to dominate business too long, while men and women who have outcompeted and outproduced them work for them - hardly a free market or fair competition.

In the interest of a healthy private sector and a spirit of competition, I say we add a provision reaffirming the right to a good education to this bill.

Healthcare, education, union rights; these are centrist, moderate stances that already exist as social reforms and that the majority of Americans consider to be constitutional rights - to provide a slightly less uneven playing field so that the best and brightest are not beaten out for the best occupations and leaderhship roles by considerably less competitive individuals who simply had the benefits of better education and healthcare.

I'm surprised you don't support this, Mr. Jarvis. If you actually believed that people should catch their own happiness, you would support these measures. But I guess you feel those who rule deserve to rule even when they are outcompeted, even when brighter and harder working individuals exist. I suppose you believe it is government's job to enforce these forced inequalities of opportunity, in order to ensure that certain individuals are guaranteed high status even when they lack merit, and that other individuals are denied status even when they possess far greater merit.

In short, like anti-monopoly legislation, this Second Bill of Rights does not attack or restrict the private sector or the free market, it removes barriers put in the way of the market by the government - the barriers of land monopolies and aristocracy. By creating and ensuring a level playing field, this Second Bill of Rights does not punish or aid competitors in the field, it secures and defends competition itself.

That is the philosophy of the rising American wave - a centrist wave sweeping back the feudalistic reaction of Jarvis Republicanism. It is astounding when Callaghan supporters can be attempting to lower the graduated tax differences, differences centrist capitalists like Adam Smith himself strongly supported, and yet still be too leftist for Mr.Jarvis. It is a sad state when being to the right of the inventor of capitalism is radical communism in the eyes of a former vice president.

So I say, do not support Jarvis and the far-right; come join us in the center-right in supporting Eamon Callaghan and the Second Bill of Rights.
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
First your coalition calls us mad liberals, now you call us mad reactionaries!

This bill sets a dangerous precedence. North Carolina, and hopefully our colleagues from the South, says Nay. We certainly support your articles regarding elections, primaries, and education, but that is all.

Furthermore, we believe in a poll tax. That way the electorate is concerned about who it is voting for, instead of allowing the flooding of the system by incredibly useless support.

We also dislike this attempt to jab our Party. Leave the partisanship aside, or North Carolina will not take you seriously.
 

Revan529

Field Marshal
91 Badges
Mar 28, 2009
2.704
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
Its a gross intrusion of federal power on the market and individualism! Now, certain pieces of the legislation I am not opposed to on a moral level, but I don;t believe that the federal government should the main actor of this. The Fourth Amendment is wholly unacceptable, as it undermines the Republic and the Senate is elected to represent the states, unlike the House, which directly represents the people.I support the first section of the Fifth amendment, as I've stated before my support for safety reform; a minimum wage is government intrusion, and is actually detrimental to the poor. I don't believe education is a right in and of itself; neither is medical care. Both of those are something you earn. As well, the First Amendment grants too much power to the unions, and hurts workers outside them, forcing people to become bound in those unions.

And I fail to see how a low flat tax is so radical or far right, sir. Or how my individualistic views are feudalistic.
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I agree with Mr. Jarvis; unions are no saints. Adam Smith was a strong proponent of the free market, so much that his followers believe the market will provide a just wage. Coming from a man so prone to worshiping Adam Smith such as Mr. Bridgeworthy, a minimum wage should not be supported
 

zagoroth

Mayor
49 Badges
Jan 12, 2010
1.067
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
A Bill should not be made to encompass Social and Democratic reforms. Split the Bill into a Liberal Bill and a Social Bill. This way each separate bill has a greater chance of getting passed, for your perspective, because anyone comfortable with the Social and not the Political or vice versa, can only vote Ney for the part they dont like.
 

Seek75

Share Our Wealth!
35 Badges
Oct 7, 2010
2.804
1
www.youfail.org
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Life, liberty, and happiness are not in our Constitution, they are in our Declaration of Independence.

Strange how one who speaks so much of the Constitution seems not to know what is in it.
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
((Fortunately due to the super-majority required this will not pass into the Constitution. If this Bill of Rights is what I think it is.

Actually, I don't know if we have anything near the number required to block it in any case.))
 

friget234

Captain
63 Badges
Mar 10, 2011
319
0
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
((if i remember your president Rosevelt proposed something like this. Dunno might have been from a movie :)))

((also what are the countrys policys on conscription? Just curiose))
 

Mikeboy

Lt. General
83 Badges
Aug 27, 2010
1.485
46
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
((if i remember your president Rosevelt proposed something like this. Dunno might have been from a movie :)))

((also what are the countrys policys on conscription? Just curiose))

((He did, although the idea was around for a fair bit before.))

I think the most important thing Mr Bridgeworthy pointed out is that these articles add nothing new, they only enshrine laws we already have in our constitution to ensure that these fundamental rights aren't violated by any potential future reactionary regime.

Furthermore, we believe in a poll tax. That way the electorate is concerned about who it is voting for, instead of allowing the flooding of the system by incredibly useless support.

Yes, I am sure that is the case and it has nothing at all to do with the to you terrifying prospect of the blacks being easily allowed to vote.
 
Last edited:

Revan529

Field Marshal
91 Badges
Mar 28, 2009
2.704
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
How is a minimum wage a fundamental right? How is education a fundamental, government provided, right? How is unionizing a right?

All men must speak freely, pray freely, enure their property is theirs, the press is free and bear arms; beyond those and the others mentioned in the Bill of Rights, I can't think of any more God-given rights. Remember, the Bill of Rights was made to prevent the government, not the market, from seizing power. The Founder's wanted little restriction on growth, trade, and property; which these amendments would violate, or somehow infringe.

I oppose a poll tax myself; it discourages voting and is an obstruction to liberty.
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Is half a day's wage for elections that happen every two years oppressive? It seems you, Mr. Glynn, overestimate the plight of our population. Not that California has any right to speak of the black population.

As always, the Democratic-Federalist coalition relies on populist punchlines and portraying us as reactionaries and liberals at the same time to make the Republican stance seem terrible. North Carolina is disappointed, not only in their populism, but trying to put their hands where they shouldn't be.
 
Jan 20, 2011
645
0
So you believe that those who have caught and are able to catch, given a fair opportunity, their own happiness have no right to prevent it from being taken from them by the State; while those unwilling to catch their own should be handed that stolen happiness?

You serve stand for neither the free market or the Constitution. Honestly, you seem to confuse the privilege of assuming the property of others for the purposes of the general welfare with an unlimited god-given right to do so.

I believe in the responsible exercise of such privileges, that it is necessary to sometimes add a burden on to some here as long as we help them an equal amount elsewhere. That's why I am willing to add the burden of industrialists upon the backs of the productive. Yet you want privilege to be unlimited and to add huge burdens onto the most competitive, productive citizens while giving them nothing in return. That's nothing but statist robbery, your policies.

You don't seem to believe in the institution of private property at all. You took the property of the factory workers, of the farmers, and gave it to industrialists - who didn't earn it - and you expect no responsibilities in return? No form of restitution?

I feel ashamed for you, that you believe the state has an unlimited right to rob the job creators in the fields and on the assembly lines in order to hand it all over to the entitled with no recompense or responsibilities.

I was under the impression, having read the Constitution, that when the State intrudes on the natural order; robbing the livelihood of the freeholders and the craftsmen so that there may be an industrial revolution; that such statist intervention came with some responsibilities.

Yet here you are saying that the state has an unlimited right to tax the productive, that everything a person makes should go to the man the State has appointed to head up that area, that there should be no minimum wage - no limit on that taxation.

Until you learn to have the slightest bit of respect for the producers who produce the company's profits and the owner's salary, you won't know the slightest thing about freedom or property.

Good god man, it is as if you were a Vinogradist - you think that when the State took the land from the industrious many and gave it to a random few who had not earned it, in order for industry to thrive, that property became the State's to give, unconditionally. You formed these trusts, these communes, and now you think the State appointed industrialists have an unlimited power to tax and control the lives of the original owners who live and work on what used to be small, privately held family claims and are now massive industrial collectives.

The difference between responsible industrialism and your unrestrained communism is recognizing a responsibility to the people who created all of this happiness that you have been redistributing into the hands of a State-favored few.

It will be a dark day if the nation ever finds itself with no options to choose from except your total state or an anarchist's no state at all.

Fortunately, there are good men seeking responsible government; who know you cannot give a man a land title that makes him factory owner, an entitlement that technically violates the property rights of the working people, without also giving something back to the people you are taxing in return.

Through responsible government we have even reached a point where we do not need to alienate Americans from each other by making this repayment too overt; we no longer need to have a much larger percentage taxation on the industrialist in order to make it right that the State gave him the entitlement to collect the produce of so many others, against their natural rights.

Instead we are able to, through an even playing field through such institutions as education and medicine, remove those State-created barriers of wealth inequality, of wealth taxed from the producers and given over to the industrialists by the State without the consultation of the aggrieved.

Men like you said that industrialists didn't have to catch their own happiness, you stole that happiness from the producing Americans and handed it over to them because you were the government and the people couldn't stop you.

What we are saying today is that everyone should have to catch their own happiness, which is why with the redistribution of wealth from factory workers to owners by an artificial law not guaranteed by the Constitution we must compensate with systems of education, health, and union rights.

No privilege that violates another man's constitutional rights should go without an according responsibility. That responsibility, in the most benevolent and effective form, takes the place of education and other institutions of removing the barriers the state has put into people's way by redistributing the wealth from the productive to the managerial.

Look at yourself, Jarvis. Here the rest of us are trying to put an end to class conflict, not by taking back everything stolen from the producers but by making schools and hospitals. The only ones left fighting a class war are you and the Anarchists.

Honestly, every time you talk about industrialists as if they have a god given right to what the State took from simple Americans to give to them you sound like Eric Vandrove talking about total state control of industrial communes. Your views are not one iota different from him; you both seek to impose an all powerful state bureaucracy that redistributes the private property of Americans - the only difference is that you have been very successful whereas he has been very unsuccessful.

Stop making a fool of yourself and claiming that your system of daylight robbery and unlimited state derived privilege has anything to do with the Constitution or the free market. Your conduct in this campaign, and before this campaign, has been nothing but a barrage of hate that you have been repeatedly asked to rephrase, incendiary class war speeches you have been asked to refrain from.

As an honorable man of the West I cannot condone your continued unbecoming behavior.

(( Seriously, OOC I'm getting a bit agitated at Jarvis calling everything opponents propose unconstitutional and making other extremely subjective assessments that go beyond even the norms of campaigning. As someone who accused someone of being a monarchist spy in a presidential campaign, I know what it is like to play a fiery character; but things are getting a bit too out of hand with Jarvis.

Even when we agreed that the whole audience godmoding thing was a problem, you took that opportunity to make a potshot at my character and the opposition in general.

I don't like getting into lengthy academic debates on the Constitution and the original intentions of John Locke's property theory, or even straightforward matters like Adam Smith's support of a progressive tax system, on a game forum such as this. Stop making me do so by maybe no longer using the biased "my views are constitutional everyone else's isn't" card more than every other character/player in the game combined.

Just a thought. If I constantly called everyone anti-constitutional or unamerican, it wouldn't be conductive to good gameplay; neither is anyone doing it.

Biased statements about each other is one thing; but the usual "socialist!" "reactionary!" type argument is a bit more in-character and appropriate than "Your views are totally wrong because of x and y" which then requires a lengthy academic study of that statement.

If I wanted to have to discuss political theory this in-depth I'd go to a politics forum. Calling a platform that is historically moderate for this game and even for the time period in real life unconstitutional, socialist, etc. is a really outrageous statement, which is such play-styles from some players/characters are getting the types of responses they are.

I think we should all tone it down and generally agree to very rarely use the "you stand against everything America stands for" type card. Because every time one person uses it, the person they used it on will then use it, and it becomes a giant mess. ))
 
Last edited:

friget234

Captain
63 Badges
Mar 10, 2011
319
0
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
((holy crap Rogov these are rediculong posts))
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
((I lack the energy to do the long posts of old...maybe I'll do it again someday. Seek75 should know what it's like.)
 

Revan529

Field Marshal
91 Badges
Mar 28, 2009
2.704
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
That is a perversion of my ideology, and a foolish, downright ignorant, misinterpretation at that!

I do not support the State even being involved in the market, except when absolutely necessary, yet you call me akin to a Vinogradist! Mr. Callahan, a socialist, is far closer to that than I am!

That government steals money from one man, to create a massive bureaucracy under the guise of helping people is saddening. I have no doubt you believe socialized education would be good; however, once you 'great reformers' are dead and gone, who'll run it? Corrupt bureaucrats, lining their pockets, and their cronies, with positions, wealth, and control, at the expense of our children.

You, sir, have absolutely no knowledge of my views! If you did, you would have been able to make a concise statement about it, not this blathering nonsense! Where did I say I want to increase the power of the State?
 

Devotist

First Lieutenant
16 Badges
Nov 14, 2009
234
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Magicka
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
It may best to leave this issue be, Mr. Jarvis. I may disagree with them, but we are growing too old to debate the youngsters so vigorously. Unfortunately, there is no one to pass the mantle to.
 

Revan529

Field Marshal
91 Badges
Mar 28, 2009
2.704
93
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
I will not stop fighting the cause of liberty, despite my age... my grandson Joseph is almost old enough to go to college now, though...

Regardless, I do not support the increase of federal power, which Mr. Bridgeworthy would get his head out of the mud, would realize his president is a socialist, and much closer to the Vinogradist's than I ever could be!

I also support lower taxes than my opponent, since he calls for a 25% progressive tax, and I advocate a 10% flat tax.

((as for the unconstitutional part... I just call it as I see it (and interpret it). I see your point but, this game is based on America, so the Constitution is gong to pop up a few times, or at least it should (of course, IRL it doesn't, but that's neither here nor there)))
 
Last edited:

friget234

Captain
63 Badges
Mar 10, 2011
319
0
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
((i'm from canada so I don't know that much about U.S. law and stuff. I can only imagin how hard it is for the europeans))
 

zagoroth

Mayor
49 Badges
Jan 12, 2010
1.067
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
(Oye, are we already bickering about tax? Are we in 1874 or 1974 ;-))
 

Avindian

People's Commissar of the Navy
120 Badges
Jan 3, 2010
12.364
291
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Congratulations, President-elect Callahan.

To my fellow Republicans: to have been beaten so badly is shameful, particularly with General Mandrake's fine legacy in office. We should spend less time mudslinging and getting into debates we cannot hope to win and more time mobilizing popular support.