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1)- Damascus is a KoJ province, not Byzantine
2)- Most of the army will be Christian
3)- Where'd the cult of Sol Invictus come from?
So all in all, I don't think it can work.
2)- Most of the army will be Christian
3)- Where'd the cult of Sol Invictus come from?
So all in all, I don't think it can work.
That is something I also was confused about, historical facts please?Avernite said:3)- Where'd the cult of Sol Invictus come from?
Avernite said:1)- Damascus is a KoJ province, not Byzantine
2)- Most of the army will be Christian
3)- Where'd the cult of Sol Invictus come from?
So all in all, I don't think it can work.
1- OK
2- Im sure than not all of the army where loyal to the emperor, neither to Jehova. The loyalty among medival armies where high, and the most soliders most often lisen to thier commanders, and not to priests. Plus, they had all growned up in a socety where the most people is convinced that the emperor can't do wrong, he is somekind of Demigod to the people.
3- Sol invictus (Frome Wikipedia):
Sol Invictus ("the unconquered sun") or, more fully, Deus Sol Invictus ("the unconquered sun god") was a religious title applied to three distinct divinities during the later Roman Empire. (El Gabal, Mithras, and Sol)
Unlike the earlier, agrarian cult of Sol Indiges ("the sun in-the-earth"), the title Deus Sol Invictus was formed by analogy with the imperial titulature pius felix invictus ("dutiful, fortunate, unconquered").
A festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun (or Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) was celebrated when the duration of daylight first begins to increase after the winter solstice,—the "rebirth" of the sun.
Emperor Aurelian introduced an official religion of Sol Invictus in 270, making the sun-god the premier divinity of the empire, and wearing his radiated crown himself. While not officially identified with Mithras, Aurelian's Sol borrowed many features from Mithraism, including the iconographical representation of the god as a beardless youth. Aurelian dedicated the Sol Invictus Temple on December 25, 274 in a festival called dies natalis Solis Invicti or birthday of the invincible Sun.
Okay, I understand there was a Sol Invictus group in 274 AD, but in 1419?
Byzantium has been christian for a millenium, and now it's soldiers need to fight the christians? Needs some serious monetary bonus, and where's the guy going to get that?
Not to mention that a 4th crusade would be a GREAT opportunity if Byz goes Pagan instead of staying schismatic, and we all know Matty doesn't want one
Byzantium has been christian for a millenium, and now it's soldiers need to fight the christians? Needs some serious monetary bonus, and where's the guy going to get that?
Not to mention that a 4th crusade would be a GREAT opportunity if Byz goes Pagan instead of staying schismatic, and we all know Matty doesn't want one
Considering that the Byzantines couldn't even convert to Catholicism properly, when their backs were against the wall, I find it impossible for them to start worshipping Jupiter all of a sudden
I think its worthy of an event, perhaps, about how best to deal with a pagan cult that has continued to be worshipped. But actually bringing it into the game at this stage? No, not for this mod. Our alternative history starts back in the 1100's when Sol I victus was surely gone.
If you choose ex. "Let them be and let them build tempels" in that event, maby an later event coud come where someone unveiled that the emperor had joined that cult. If you let it be and allow Sol Invictus, maby some provinces coud turn pagan in the future, and give the player the opinion to change the state religion.
Like this:
"The cult of Sol Invictus"
"Great one! It has recently been discovered that an old cult of the pagan gos Sol Invictus is still existing. Some citisens of Constantinople is attracted to this pagan religion, and also people in cities like Thessaconicla and Athens have started to worship the sun. What should we do?"
Action A: "Those heretics must be crushed!"
Stabilty -1
Narrowminded +3
Serfdom +1
-100 drenari (for hiring assasins)
Sleep event: ????? (The heretic emperor)
Action B: "Let the people kill them themselves!"
Stability -1
-250 drenari (repair costs of the mobs)
Narrowminded +1
Sleep event: ????? (The heretic emperor)
Action C: "Let them be."
Stability +1
Intovaness +2
"The heretic emperor"
"Recently, Emperor Demetrios (ex.) where unmasked as the leader of the Sol invictus cult. This is a dillema, should we let him and his cult to continiue or kill him?
Action A: "We dont want a pagan ceasar!"
Stability -1
Narrowminded +2
-100 gold
Demetrios I dies
Action B: "Let him be"
Stability +1
- 100 gold
Allows pagan conversion
But of course, you are the master!
Like this:
"The cult of Sol Invictus"
"Great one! It has recently been discovered that an old cult of the pagan gos Sol Invictus is still existing. Some citisens of Constantinople is attracted to this pagan religion, and also people in cities like Thessaconicla and Athens have started to worship the sun. What should we do?"
Action A: "Those heretics must be crushed!"
Stabilty -1
Narrowminded +3
Serfdom +1
-100 drenari (for hiring assasins)
Sleep event: ????? (The heretic emperor)
Action B: "Let the people kill them themselves!"
Stability -1
-250 drenari (repair costs of the mobs)
Narrowminded +1
Sleep event: ????? (The heretic emperor)
Action C: "Let them be."
Stability +1
Intovaness +2
"The heretic emperor"
"Recently, Emperor Demetrios (ex.) where unmasked as the leader of the Sol invictus cult. This is a dillema, should we let him and his cult to continiue or kill him?
Action A: "We dont want a pagan ceasar!"
Stability -1
Narrowminded +2
-100 gold
Demetrios I dies
Action B: "Let him be"
Stability +1
- 100 gold
Allows pagan conversion
But of course, you are the master!
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MattyG, could you please have a look at this preliminary draft you wanted to check out 2 days ago here http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232542&page=2 . And tell me what you think. I'm starting to have doubts about it myself, after yourworstnightm's idea about converting Turks to Orthodoxy.MattyG said:
To convert the Turks to ortodox, should be possible if they are under Eastern Roman rule.Sekenr said:
Sekenr said:
I promose, promise promise this weekend. I've mad meetings and the whole family has had the flu and I'm pretty tired. Very sorry. I hope you don't feel like I blew it off. I reaaly appreciate it when people want to add to the mod and don't be discouraged!!!!
o
I am generally nervous about the idea that some of the Turkish minors would begin Orthodox. It's not that it isn't possible/conceivable (hell, the game system allows us to covert anyone into state religion, even Mecca to Pagan).
I am concerned at the overall 'balance of power' between the religions in 1419. Al-Andalus may be stronger than in vanilla, but the Islamic world has already taken a huge hit in its heartland with the KoJ owning, what, six provinces. Not that it isn't conceivable, I'm not talking about plausibility here.
If Teke or Karaman was to be Orthodox and allied with Byzantium, where's the trade off? Perhaps Georgia begins the game as Islamic (not inconceivable) and allied with the Asia Minor turks.
Matty
I am concerned at the overall 'balance of power' between the religions in 1419. Al-Andalus may be stronger than in vanilla, but the Islamic world has already taken a huge hit in its heartland with the KoJ owning, what, six provinces. Not that it isn't conceivable, I'm not talking about plausibility here.
If Teke or Karaman was to be Orthodox and allied with Byzantium, where's the trade off? Perhaps Georgia begins the game as Islamic (not inconceivable) and allied with the Asia Minor turks.
Matty
Well with the detail that has been given to the Caliphate and to Tunisia I think the muslim world is pretty damn strong as it is (i.e Sicily and maybe even italy could convert to Islam and Berber) and making one of the 3/4 turkish minors orthodox adds something to anatolia, it certainly opens doors to new events.
Dr Bob said:
I don't agree that the setup of Interregnum has the Islamic world stronger than in vanilla. There's no OE, and that's huge. Tlemcen starts big but is destined to collapse in a pathetic heap and dismember into smaller weaker units. Mamelukes are OK, but have a civil war in the games critical window (the mid 1400s). And while weak, we are now looking to reduce islam in Asia Minor too? There would have to be concessions balance-wise. Sicily does come to mind except the re-writing of history would need to be very very dramatic for it to be plausible and when you swap catholic for sunni in Italy then we are looking at having to seriously rethink the focus of the Pope and the Catholic world.
Georgia, at least, has less done on it and still throws that nice amount of variety in there: no longer can Byzantium or Ukraine have two easy provinces to gobble: they now start against you and with that good ole religious price tag.
I'd like to hear from Calipah especially on this one.
yourworstnightm said:
worstnightmare
As Interregnum is plausible history then You must count historic precedents where muslims turned to other religion. EU2 already have misionaries who have unhistoricaly good chance to convert muslims. There is exemples in modern world about "secularised" muslims, and few exemples where is something like conversion with sword for a part of muslim population (muslims in spain, tatarstan), but as islam is VERY strong arguments against another religions and apostates are dispised even by closest relatives (or in some cases even killed but that another story). Many muslims ar muslims only by name but muslim do not change their religion to another. See western europe muslim imigrants. Many of them are only by name but they do not turn to become christians and nobody can say that they cant it do. Their community would turn their backs in this hypotetical case but it not reason not to convert becouse this do not stop people in oposite cases. etc.
So from secular point of view there were historical possibility that turks did not become muslims, but it is too deep in history and goes off Interegnum scope.
Prince Ares said:
In lot of cases christianity mixes with some local pagan traditions or goes what "mainstreem" christians see as "heresy" but is there a precedent that christians turn to paganism (if do not count modern materialism and consumerism as paganism)? There is always some not ereoded elements like astrology, soothsaying and so on, or modern esoterisms and another himalaji things, but true religous paganism?
I wouldn't go with an orthodox tribe at start, but maybe the Byzantines could go for a conversion of independent turk states to Orthodox, a bit like Nubia going sunni?
So, in essence, some Byzantines would have thought up the idea pre-1419, and maybe even succeeded, but those tribes would be in Anatolia or somesuch by now, despised by their neighbours and thus incorporated in Byzantium, but if all the Anatolian muslims are defeated these Orthodox Turks could become the new masters as a Byzantine puppet.
So, in essence, some Byzantines would have thought up the idea pre-1419, and maybe even succeeded, but those tribes would be in Anatolia or somesuch by now, despised by their neighbours and thus incorporated in Byzantium, but if all the Anatolian muslims are defeated these Orthodox Turks could become the new masters as a Byzantine puppet.
No problem at all. When I talked about Turks I didn't mean them start Orthodox but more like yourworstmightm is thinking. Like redoing this chain I made to convert them, so the player could diploannex them later maybe.MattyG said:I promose, promise promise this weekend. I've mad meetings and the whole family has had the flu and I'm pretty tired. Very sorry. I hope you don't feel like I blew it off. I reaaly appreciate it when people want to add to the mod and don't be discouraged!!!!
Avernite said:
As I said. There is no historical precedent where muslims nation converts to christianity, but lot of oppposite (as Nubia etc).
I doubt the Turks would convert to Orthodoxy - they are a fiercly independent people and their conversion to Islam had survived many troubles before. Even during the momentous Byzantine reconquest under Manuel, the Greeks forecefully had to kick out many Muslims from Anatolia to ensure some balance of power. Heck, the Caliph in Baghdad forced the Emperor to maintain Mosques in several Rum lands.I'd turn it down myself, though I dont oppose turning Anatalyia and other provinces into 'Greek Orthodox' to represent a sort of resistance to Turkish assimilation. Overall, I'll keep this in mind as Matty and I rework the Cal file. Also, making some states Orthodox allows Byzantium easier acess into Anatolia without much Bad boy (they can diplo annex).
However, if Byzantium converts to Paganism, that has two implications :
One : A player can annex all of Byzantium, and convert its relatively rich provinces to his respective culture and faith.Not a good advantage.
Two : From a plausibility standpoint, there will be reprecussions to 'return' to Paganism, as Im sure the Christians of Byzantium, who constitute a majority will revolt or turn to their neighbours to overthrow the sacrilege of paganism.If they fail,they would most likely turn to their neighbours, and no more so than the Caliphate or Ukraine, considering both states either share the same faith or hold considerable tolerance to it.
However, if Byzantium converts to Paganism, that has two implications :
One : A player can annex all of Byzantium, and convert its relatively rich provinces to his respective culture and faith.Not a good advantage.
Two : From a plausibility standpoint, there will be reprecussions to 'return' to Paganism, as Im sure the Christians of Byzantium, who constitute a majority will revolt or turn to their neighbours to overthrow the sacrilege of paganism.If they fail,they would most likely turn to their neighbours, and no more so than the Caliphate or Ukraine, considering both states either share the same faith or hold considerable tolerance to it.