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The Power of Diplomacy: Thuringen AAR

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Estratega
Aug 29, 2000
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usuarios.tripod.es
I modified the Grand Campaign EUG file to be only Thuringen playable. I deleted the other countries tags.

I don't like wars, so I dedicated only to diplomacy and trade. And the outcome was incredible.

I was trying to be Kaiser, but it's a hard target as you'll read.

I must warn those patriotic people don't keep on reading, because of serious mental disorders may arise on you.

I was playing at normal settings and didn't reload or cheated, just for your knowledge.

The AAR is here: http://www.ctv.es/USERS/aleal/eu/Thuringen/Thuringen.htm

Best regards,

Laruku

[This message has been edited by Laruku (edited 04-11-2000).]
 
It sure helps when you are the only major nation.

ie you can inherit all other countries and vassalize them.

/Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 04-11-2000).]
 
Johan wrote:

]ie you can inherit all other countries and vassalize them.
Click to expand...

REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS:

Does that mean, that only majors can inherit a minor (i.e. not a minor another minor)?
Does that mean, that only major countries can vassalize?
Does the erasing of the other majors mean, that You inherit more often?

I came up the last question, because I thought inheriting is quite scarce. But Laruku inherited at least twice, I think.

Thanx, Hartmann
 
That was a remarkable AAR!

I think it shows how well-balanced the game is in terms of how there is no single way to succeed. On the other hand, it appears that pursuing extreme strategies (i.e. all military, all diplomacy, all economics) can produce unrealistic results. Johan is right, though. You'll find the game more challenging if you make sure that you're creating a fair environment when you set the playable countries.
 
Originally posted by Hartmann:


REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS:

Does that mean, that only major countries can vassalize?
Does the erasing of the other majors mean, that You inherit more often?
Click to expand...

Minor countries may vassalize other minor. I learned that in my Granada campaign, when Cyrenaica was a vassal of Oman who was a vassal of Aden who was my vassal ;)

To the other question, I don't think so. If you have established 20 Royal Marriages or so, you are in the line of succession of a lot of countries. If the king of those nations died unexpectedly without inheritor, the country has two options:

* a Regency
* search another King among your friends

The last was the options that took Brandenburg and Hungary in my AAR.


[This message has been edited by Laruku (edited 04-11-2000).]
 
I have to wonder about vassal procedures. It seems very odd that a larger, stronger country would tolerate being vassalized and annexed by a puny minor. While I understand that playing a minor with no other 'major' powers can allow strange behavior, Hungary being annexed by a smaller, weaker country is just weird. It should be the other way around.

Maybe there should be rules that (1) for a country to agree to be vassalized, it has to be smaller/weaker than the vassalizing power and (2) annexation should take an extended period of vassalization and the annexing power has to be significantly stronger than that the target vassal. Scotland submitting to England or Hungary submitting to Austria makes sense. Poland or Denmark submitting to Portugal or Brandenberg doesn't (barring changes in fortune).

Of course, as the human player I can just refrain from making such moves. But still.

Just my two cents.
 
Originally posted by Pole:
I have to wonder about vassal procedures. It seems very odd that a larger, stronger country would tolerate being vassalized and annexed by a puny minor. While I understand that playing a minor with no other 'major' powers can allow strange behavior, Hungary being annexed by a smaller, weaker country is just weird. It should be the other way around.

Maybe there should be rules that (1) for a country to agree to be vassalized, it has to be smaller/weaker than the vassalizing power and (2) annexation should take an extended period of vassalization and the annexing power has to be significantly stronger than that the target vassal. Scotland submitting to England or Hungary submitting to Austria makes sense. Poland or Denmark submitting to Portugal or Brandenberg doesn't (barring changes in fortune).

Of course, as the human player I can just refrain from making such moves. But still.

Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Please, read carefully my AAR. I didn't vassalize Hungary, I inherited it. If you consider this not historical, just think about Prussia inheriting Brandenburg or Carlos I inheriting Austria+Spain+America+ Nederland+lots of Italian minors. All these was possible by Royal Marriages. The game just simulates this.

When Poland or Portugal or Austria are my vassal, I'm stronger and larger than them, after having eating a lot of countries.

If you find disturbing this, you may always turn off the game if that happens to you. :D

Just my 2 million dollars. ;)



[This message has been edited by Laruku (edited 05-11-2000).]
 
Please, read carefully my AAR. I didn't vassalize Hungary, I inherited it. If you consider this not historical, just think about Prussia inheriting Brandenburg or Carlos I inheriting Austria+Spain+America+ Nederland+lots of Italian minors. All these was possible by Royal Marriages. The game just simulates this.
Click to expand...

Oops. Sorry about that. I did not realize my error until after posting.

Would I be correct in assuming that only 'major' powers can inherit? That might explain your rash of good luck. You were the only 'major' power. And I have no particular problem with inheritence of other countries though I have some reservations which I will go into later.

(BTW, I think it was Brandenburg inheriting Prussia, not the other way around. Brandenburg would eventually rename itself Prussia because that way the ruler could be the 'King of Prussia' instead of the 'Grand Elector of Brandenburg'.)

When Poland or Portugal or Austria are my vassal, I'm stronger and larger than them, after having eating a lot of countries.
Click to expand...

Still, from what I read from the AARs, vassalization and political annexation can come too easy. There rarely appears to be a downside. It costs money of course but countries will submit without too much wimpering. And there does not appear to be any diplomatic penalties either from other countries who either (1) want to remain independent or (2) fear you are gaining too much power. Unfortunately, I do not have the game yet so maybe I am misunderstanding something.

Still, I think these countries would resist if at all possible. First, I would not be surprised if Poland and Austria allied to put up a united front and thus be at least as strong as Greater Thuringen. Second, sure, you may actually get their kings to agree to a vassalization but the nobles or the peasants or the church may not be so accomodating. At the very least, you would expect that sometimes leading political opponents would rise up and try to claim the throne after the king had 'betrayed' the country. This would make vassalization and political annexation (and for that matter, inheritance) a bit more difficult - if you want the country you have to defeat the rebels. Otherwise, you must give up the attempt and suffer a drop in relations. This could also lead to wars of succession (free CBs for every neighbor, great power and countries with royal marriages). Third, I would expect a greater chance of rebellion in these countries until several generations had passed. Just because they submitted back when doesn't mean they are happy about it now.

I suppose this may be impossible to implement at this late date but maybe EU2?

Thanks for the AAR. It was interesting to say the least. And thought provoking...
 
Interesting AAR to say the least. I find it hard to believe you managed to stay out of wars as long as you did. Also kind of shocking that as huge as you were at the end you had almost no military to speak of. I suspect a lot of the events revolved around a lack of major powers.

Good job nonetheless.
 
Originally posted by Dragon:
Interesting AAR to say the least. I find it hard to believe you managed to stay out of wars as long as you did. Also kind of shocking that as huge as you were at the end you had almost no military to speak of. I suspect a lot of the events revolved around a lack of major powers.

Good job nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Thanks. All the major powers were alive and kicking. The only difference was that I cannot choose them from the start. They were managed by the AI, as usual.
I had no military because I tried to play only diplomaticaly. I kept happy everyone giving them lots of money every month. I had got an incredible amount of money from my colonies around the world. Only the pesky Pope and his lacay Knights were not so happy with me, but didn't dare to say anything.

In my next AAR, playing as Austria, I'm a bit more temerary, with an extraordinary outcome... It will be called 'The Austrian Behemoth', just gess why (hehe).



[This message has been edited by Laruku (edited 06-11-2000).]
 
---------
Thanks. All the major powers were alive and kicking. The only difference was that I cannot choose them from the start. They were managed by the AI, as usual.
---------

Hum Hum, Sorry but I must disagree on this point. With no other Major Power THERE IS ONE big difference as shown in the final vp report: you was the only one conducting mission.

With 6 or 7 other MP conducting mission like: vassalize Hungary, have marriage with Brandebourg, Annex Thuringen ( ;o) ),... you can bet that your diplomatic walk over could have been really more difficult.

I understand that for your purpose making MP annexable was a prerequisite BUT I think that just make things too much on your ways. Anyway I was amazed at your success ( and you monstruous amount of cash ( any loan for me ? :eek:) ).

- About Annexion ( except correct spelling :eek:) ): In GC can I annex Nederland ? in controlling all European Province ? All European Province AND Colonies ?
 
Yes, Greywolf, you're almost right about the mission points. But I think every country has a mission in their code (e.g. spanish AI, that is in the .inc file, that I didn't touch). Anyway, I should have switched it off. I found it even disturbing when an impossible mission was imposed, causing me to lose points. I'm playing now without forcing missions, but I'm choosing the easy ones from time to time.

Anyway, with missions or without them, the Great Powers Spain, France, Russia, Poland, and so on, were there. They were very busy fighting each other to notice how a humble country was slowly growing. I kept them away because I had established 20 Royal Marriages or so, avoiding any conflict with them. I didn't even care to upgrade my country or build an army (I only had diplomats for a long time, no money). My alliances were with my vassals, being peaceful and nice for almost 200 years. Starting in the middle of Europe, I think was also a help, being surrounded by happy neighbours (with a little help of my money)

And to say the last, I just wanted to know HOW LONG I might survey with a puny country without waging war. I took for granted that if I reached 1500, that would have been a great success. When I inherited Brandenburg, I couldn't believe it. I remembered having read an AAR about England inheriting Sweden, but it's a great pleasure when that happened to you (more if it happened twice ;) )
 
As I have said in other places, minors with more than two provinces should not be politically annexable. Period.

Inheriting is something else. Heiratspolitiker! :D
 
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