The possibility of Exarchs?

[Carroarmato-P40]

I had just recently purchased the Old Gods add on (among a few other DLC bits and pieces), and decided to play a game as the Byzantines from 870AD.

During the reign of my 2nd Emperor I completed the conquest of Southern Italy, Sicily and made big inroads into Eastern Asia Minor; however an opportunity arose for me to attack Tunisia and I managed to annex Tunis (Carthage). The Emperor soon died after the war in which I acquired Tunis and within a few years I annexed all of what was Tunisia and made the Emperor's brother Doux of the region. However having brought this part of the former Empire back into the fold; it occurred to me that the being quite disconnected from the rest of my territory, it was in essence the re-establishment of the Exarch of Africa. I feel that there are a few key titles missing in this game for the Byzantines (Personally I'd like to see the addition of 'Panhypersebastos', 'Sebastos', 'Patrikos', 'Megas Domestikos' and 'Megas Doux' along with two eunuch specific titles, 'Proedros' and 'Vestarches'). However, I think the inclusion of Exarchs would be great feature, they could be used as a means of semi-self governance whereby the recipient would still be de-facto subject of the Emperor and thus a part of the Empire, but able to exercise more internal freedom and self-determination.

In short there could be the following:
Exarch of Italy.
Exarch of Africa.
Exarch of Ravenna.
Exarch of Egypt (fictional I know, but with a potential reconquest of Egypt, this would/should be possible. It would be akin to the special emphasis placed on Egypt by Augustus).
Maybe this is drawing quite a long bow, but maybe there could be an Axarch of 'Spania' (Spain), considering Justinian managed to reconquer some areas of the south of Spain, could allow some justification for this.


Could these work in the context of CKII? I thought it would be an interesting concept, I'm now well into the reign of my third ruler and just made my son the Despot of Georgia and Armenia. Which was also part of the reason why I thought of posting about this, was also curious if anyone else had thought of it also..

Thanks

 

[superskierpat]

Interesting idea, mod-wise something could probably be cooked up using events and minor titles.

 

[Tuerai]

Then it'd all go to shit when you restored the roman empire and forcibly took rome as your capital.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Interesting idea, mod-wise something could probably be cooked up using events and minor titles.

Exactly. Maybe to break it down Exarch could work like Kingdoms do (as I said earlier about the Emperor's son being despot of Georgia and Armenia), whereas a Katepanate would function more like a Duchy. If you think about how Emperor Herakleios came to power in the 600's, his father was Exarch of Africa and sent his son to Constantinople with troops and a fleet in order to claim the throne. It could lead to some pretty interesting functions for any Byzantine player; as well, and as it did in real life, it would give characters in these positions considerable power. As relevant examples, you had Herakleios take the East Roman throne in 610AD from the African Exarchate, and then in 1043 Georgios Maniakes, as the Katepan of Italy, was almost successful in his revolt against the Emperor Konstantinos IX Monomachos.

Then it'd all go to shit when you restored the roman empire and forcibly took rome as your capital.

Why would it turn to shit? As Emperor you could either chose to dissolve/usurp those titles or just let sleeping dogs lie. As in Ancient Rome, it's not exactly comparable, but you had a prefect ruling in Egypt rather than a senatorial governor.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Interesting idea, mod-wise something could probably be cooked up using events and minor titles.

Could you not just create another set of titles, in the vein of say 'Kingdom of Sicily', 'Kingdom of Bulgaria', 'Kingdom of Armenia' and 'Kingdom of Georgia' and so on, and create a couple of Byzantine specific 'Exarchates', such as Afrika/Kakhedon, Egyptos, Ravenna/Italia and Spania ect?

 

[Faarenough]

I definitly think that the ERE needs more flavour. More hon. titles that are only availble to certain characters (ie Eunuchs, Patriarchs etc) I think the Exarchs could work and would expand the gameplay a fair bit for the ERE. When they are once again connected by land to the capital there can be a event to chnge it to a themata or not.

 

[Goodfortune99]

Yes! I would love this for Byzantine/Roman flavour since we will most surely never get the anticipated roman times dlc.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I definitly think that the ERE needs more flavour. More hon. titles that are only availble to certain characters (ie Eunuchs, Patriarchs etc) I think the Exarchs could work and would expand the gameplay a fair bit for the ERE. When they are once again connected by land to the capital there can be a event to chnge it to a themata or not.

I suppose it could be event driven, but even so. The Exarch of Africa existed whilst it was still connected to the main body of the ERE via the north African coast and Egypt.

 

[ejnomad07]

This would be done with just renaming the local king level titles to something more Roman, anything else would be rather silly gameplay wise.

The only reason Exarchs were formed was because the empire was overextended from hostility from all fronts. As a player this is very easily managable and I would never suffer this overextension they themselves suffered. So why would I want to purposly give an area of my empire even more reason to not listen to me and do their own thing if I can just as easily control it?

I am okay with more titles. It seems like as the Mongol Empire I had more titles I could give out over the Roman Empire and they don't even start in the game.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I am okay with more titles. It seems like as the Mongol Empire I had more titles I could give out over the Roman Empire and they don't even start in the game.

So in that case you aren't against the idea of exarchs?

I just think given what was put into the game via the Legacy of Rome DLC, plus the spirit of the
'Imperium Graecorum - Aristocracy and Bureaucracy' mod (which I'm playing the Byzzies with atm); exarchs would be a nice thing to see.

 

[classicist]

A very welcome suggestion - I'd very much like to see these implemented.

 

[Greyfox32]

More like petty kingdoms.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

More like petty kingdoms.

In what sense do you mean mate?

 

[Greyfox32]

In what sense do you mean mate?

In case they become independent, you can play them as petty kingdoms (they enjoyed enough autonomy for that) , or even try to bind them more or less to the empire (but still a petty kingdom).

 

[Alerias]

I've occasionally changed the Despot localization entry to Exarch (ie, making Greek Kings Exarchs). But what I'd want ideally is for Greek Kings within the Empire to be Exarchs and independent Greek Kings to be Despots. Not sure if there's a way to mod that right now.

 

[Saintrl]

I think you could mod in a condition for specific king titles to change their name to "Exarch of" if certain triggers are met. We already see province and Kingdom names change themselves in-game and even more so in some flavor mods so I don't think it would be too far out for the title to change from Kingdom (or Despot) to Exarch. Maybe make a request in whatever big flavor mod you use? This seems like something that could be implemented easily.

 

[absinthia]

More like petty kingdoms.

petty kingdom, like Norse dukes call them selves king?
in my mind an Exarchy, in terms of size and internal organization, is more fitting for a duchy than a propper kingdom.

 

[Greyfox32]

petty kingdom, like Norse dukes call them selves king?
in my mind an Exarchy, in terms of size and internal organization, is more fitting for a duchy than a propper kingdom.

But surely they had more autonomy than dukes.

 

[MutantPenguin]

On the one hand, I can't imagine a way that this could easily be implemented in the current system, and on the other, I don't think it should be limited to the Byzantine Empire. What would be nice is a much more dynamic approach to feudal-vassal legal relations than simply "high-medium-low" crown authority across the board - each vassal should be legally bound by one of their titles to one of yours, and this relationship should be individually tracked for each vassal title. But I think that's one for CKIII.

 

[absinthia]

But surely they had more autonomy than dukes.

due to their isolated situation they sure had much autonomy. but a king-level title just seem to much in my opinion, as a king can have ducal vassals.
that is why i though a pumped-up duke would me more fitting. that is if it is even possible to have certain dukes call them selves Exarch and others not.