The pocket battleships modded

[The Yogi]

I don't know how many of you have noticed that in the *.inc files for each country, it is possible to define non-standard units. For example, in the germany.inc file, the German light cruisers Nürnberg, Leipzig, Königsberg, Karlsruhe and Köln are defined in this way to have less firepower and armour.

As soon as I saw this, I thought that the German pocket Battleships should be modded with this tool, they were after all way more powerfull than a normal cruiser. They had six 280mm (11') guns where most cruiser would have had only 200 mm (8') guns or smaller, but would also have been slower.

So this is how I did it:

division = { id = { type = 17702 id = 1 }  name = "Deutschland" type = cruiser model = 1 maxspeed = 26 seadefence = 9  seaattack = 8  }
division = { id = { type = 17702 id = 2 }  name = "Admiral Scheer" type = cruiser model = 1 maxspeed = 26 seadefence = 9 seaattack = 8  }
division = { id = { type = 17702 id = 3 }  name = "Admiral Graf Spee" type = cruiser model = 1 maxspeed = 26 seadefence = 9 seaattack = 8  }

The numbers themselves are of course debatable, I assumed that speed was set in knots and this was the actual speed for this class of ships, 26 knots. They are faster than a basic BB but slower than a cruiser.

As for firepower, I thought they would not be quite the equal of the 150+ mm BB (which is misnamed, it was agreed on the bug reporting forum that this class should be named 280+ mm BB but that it was to much work for little improvement) since most BBs would have 8 or 9 guns, so I set that to 8, and the seadefence also in between a cruiser and a BB to 9.

Anyway, I like it like that!

 

[unmerged(14715)]

This is good to know Yogi. I'll give it a try. Pocket battleships were of course much stronger than a cruiser. It took 3 cruisers to barely overcome the Graf Spee in South America. And those cruisers had good crews on them too.

 

[SEMPER FI]

Yogi

Great idea! I'm not so savy on coding and in need of explanation on making the changes i.e what file do I start at...

 

[unmerged(13241)]

I thought the speed was 28 knots, but otherwise great.

 

[The Yogi]

Re: Yogi

Originally posted by SEMPER FI
Great idea! I'm not so savy on coding and in need of explanation on making the changes i.e what file do I start at...

OK, here's how you do it. Under the folder 'scenario' there are folders called "1936", "1939" and "1941". In each of these there are a lot of files with the extension*.inc.

Find the one called Germany.inc or ger.inc, open it with notepad (or similar program) and search for the words "Deutshcland", "Admiral Scheer" or "Admiral Graf Spee". Now you should see a piece of code defining the ship you searchd for.

NOTE: In the 1941 scenario the two surviving pocket battleships are called "Admiral Scheer" and "Lützow". The "Deutschland" was renamed to "Lützow" after the loss of "Admiral Graf Spee" to lessen the moral blow should that ship be lost.

After the entry "model = 1" (indicating that this is a basic cruiser) you can paste in the changed attributes of the unit, these will overide the default attributes. I put in the following:

maxspeed = 26 seadefence = 9 seaattack = 8

but you could prolly change any other attribute of the unit. (Like visibility, base detection chance etc).

As for the max speed, I only checked it on one site, THIS ONE , and went with that but it might well be that 28 kts is the correct value.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

According to this site the max speed was 28 kn.
But zou are right, there is no waz to know which one is correct.

The site is german, but the tech specs are probablz understanble.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

A problem with this is that when ships are given reduced stats for their nominal model (for example to represent light cruisers), you can upgrade them. I'm not talking about the bug allowing upgrade of ship models introduced in 1.03a - you've always been able to upgrade "light cruisers" into "heavy cruisers". To model light cruisers, pocket battleships, whatever correctly you'd need to introduce new models to represent them.

It may work OK with pocket battleships since they would have BETTER stats than the base model, but you'd have to test.

 

[unmerged(14715)]

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
To model light cruisers, pocket battleships, whatever correctly you'd need to introduce new models to represent them.

Good point Bill. I guess paradox had the same dilemma because the pocket battleships were built early by Germany when the game only has the basic tech/models put in so they may have considered giving them higher stats too. For me, I like Yogi's idea best because the names of the ships are for the pocket BB's so its only fair to give them their deserved stats despite the limited models available. And fine ships they were.

 

[SEMPER FI]

YOGI

Thanks!

 

[unmerged(10984)]

Is the Scharnhorst class running off a modified Basic BB as well? If not, you should update their speed and armor settings to in the latter two scenerios. It always bugs me in the 1936 scenerio that I cannot build a BC or a fast Basic BB.

The pocket BB's top speed at sea not on trail was 27 knots. The Graf Spee could make 28 knots on trial but this was not the case fully loaded at sea. I got this from a number of sources.

 

[unmerged(14715)]

All about the Scharnhorst

Scharnhorst, was a Battlecruiser, Built in 1938, with a compliment of 1800. Her top speed was 31 knots and she had an armament of Nine 11-inch guns and Twelve 6-inch guns, with a secondary armament of fourteen 4-inch guns and sixteen 1.5 inch AA Guns, she also carried 6 Torpedo Tubes.

Built at Wilhelmshaven and laid down on the 16th May 1935, launched 3rd October 1936 and completed 7th January 1939. (refitted just after completion with a clipper bow so called a Atlantic Bow increasing the length by 33 feet, (to 770 ft 8 inches) this took until September 1939. Scharnhorsrt was torpedoed by a Royal Naval Submarine during the Norwegian campaign. repairs took until October 1940. After repairs she acted with her sister ship attacking allied shipping between January and Mrch1 1941. During the "Channel dash" on the 12th February 1942 the Scharnhorst (along with Gneisenau were mined but managed to reach the safety of the German Port. her repairs took place at Kiel and were completed in October 1942. In March 1943 the Scharnhorst was transferred to Northern Norway to continue her commerce raiding on Allied shipping, But on the 26th December 1943, while attempting to intercept convoy JW-55B. she encountered a large British Force of the battleship HMS Duke of York and the cruisers HMS Belfast, HMS Jamaica and HMS Norfolk. Initially HMS Norfolk engaged the Scharnhorst and a lucky hit knocked out the radar systems of the Scharnhorst. soon after the Scharnhorst was engaged by the Battleship HMS Duke of York along with the cruisers and was sunk with the loss of 1,803 crew (she had been hit by a number of shells and 14 torpedoes. This engagement took place north east of the North cape.

Because it was started to be built in 1935 it should be in the game at the start (under construction). The Gneisenau pocket battleship was built at the same time and it was Scharnhorst's sister ship. It also had a top speed of 31 knots. They were "pockets" because their construction was restricted by the post WW1 armaments treaty and that design was used up until WW2 started.

I think for game stats max speed 31 attack 10 def 10 would be reasonable.

 

[SEMPER FI]

YOGI

I've tried your modification out and it seems to work. However, the modified "pocket battleships" are inferior to basic German cruisers. Unlike German basic cruisers at the start of the 1939 scenario, it seem that the pocket battleships do not take advantage of any technology bonus. How can I fix this?

 

[The Yogi]

Ah, OK. It seems that the overide value we specify is taken as a new baseline, and no techs are added to it at the start of the scenario. Fortunately it is easly fixed, since this only happens with the stats we have changed (other upgrades seem to work OK).

By comparing a "vanilla" basic cruiser with the German basic cruisers in the -39 scenario, I come to the conclusion that their sea attack has increased by 4 (from 6 to 10) through upgrades. So increasing the Pocket Battleshipes by the same amount should put them right back at the cutting edge of German shipbuilding...

Find the ship entry and after model = 1, replace

maxspeed = 27 seadefence = 9 seaattack = 8

With

maxspeed = 27 seadefence = 9 seaattack = 12

I belive ingame this ship should upgrade normally.

 

[SEMPER FI]

YOGI

Thanks! A simple solution for a simple problem.

 

[The Yogi]

A better way to mod them!

I found out how to make the Pocket Battleships a whole new class of cruiser, you can even build more of them.

Very simply do this;

In the "db/units/" directory, open "cruiser.txt" and add

# 5 - Pocket Battleship
model = {
	cost						= 10
	buildtime 					= 450
	defaultorganisation 		= 30
	manpower					= 1
	maxspeed					= 27
	surfacedetectioncapability	= 1
	airdetectioncapability		= 1
	subdetectioncapability		= 4
	visibility					= 70
	seadefence					= 9
	airdefence					= 3
	seaattack					= 8
	subattack					= 2
	airattack					= 3
	shorebombardment			= 3
	transportcapability			= 0
	aircraftcapacity			= 0
	range						= 12000
	supplyconsumption			= 0.5
	fuelconsumption				= 1
}

In the "config/" directory, open models.csv and add this among the German model names

MODEL_GER_19_5;Pocket Battleship;;;;;;;;;;x

If you want to be able to build new pocket battleships, in the "db/tech/" directory, open "naval_tech.txt" and add

		application = { # Pocket Battleship
			id = 61071
			name = "Pocket Battleship"
			desc =  "The Pocket Battleships were a German attempt to build a ship that would not violate the naval restrictions put on Germany after WW1. They were tailored for the Commerce raider role and were supposed to be able to outgun any cruiser and outrun any battleship. Armed with six 280mm guns, they carried almost as much punch as a regular battleship, but were more lightly armoured."
			
			required = { 6007 6103 14014 13002}
			chance = 90
			cost = 12
			time = 150
			neg_offset = 30
			pos_offset = 60
			
			effects = {
				command = { type = new_model which = cruiser value = 5 }
			}
		}

Finally, open up the Germany.inc or Ger.inc scenario files as we have done before and change

name = "Deutschland"		type = cruiser model = 1 }

to

name = "Deutschland"		type = cruiser model = 5 }

Repeat this for all pocket battleships in each scenario. If you added the tech, you will also need to add 6071
to the German tech applications in each scenario file.

Of course, this process could be used to simulate any specialised or new type of equipment.

Enjoy!

 

[Reichsmarshall]

Just added this mod... Works great.

 

[unmerged(13647)]

I could be wrong here, but I don't think the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered "pocket battleships". The 3 pocket battleships of the Deutschland class were officially designed to have a displacement of under 10,000 tons so they'd comply with the Treaty of Versailles. They were over this size, but not by such an absurd amount that it was scandalous. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, on the other hand, were first planned as pocket battleships, but after a French battlecruiser (Dunkerque, maybe?) was laid down the order was changed and they were greatly upsized and their armament increased (9 11" guns, vs 6 for the pocket battleships) to be full-blown battlecruisers of around 30,000 tons with little resemblance to the original 3 pocket battleships.

The Germans classified the Deutschland ships as Panzerschiffe, which I believe translates into "armored ships". I believe the Allies gave them the name "pocket battleships", and I don't think it was meant as a compliment. The ships were a compromise that I don't think worked all that well - slower than most true cruisers and too undergunned/underarmored to fight a battlecruiser, let alone a true battleship. I think they were designed as merchant shipping raiders rather than as the major part of a battle fleet. Interestingly, the Deutschland class's namesake ship had its name changed (to Lutzow, perhaps?) after another ship of the class, Admiral Graf Spee, had been sunk. Seems a certain little corporal didn't want to read about "Deutschland" going up in flames......

 

[The Yogi]

The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered battlecruisers, not pocket battleships, I never claimed otherwise. The mod is for "Admiral Scheer", "Admiral Graf Spee" and "Deutschland/Lützow" only.

If you do not like the name "pocket battleships" then you can always change the entry in the models.csv to "Deutschland Class".

British battlecruisers were shot to pieces by German 280mm guns at Jutland, so I guess the Pocket Battleship main armament would have been far from harmless to them.

 

[Reichsmarshall]

I think the class was an excellent compromise, given the restrictions involved.

By going down to two turrets instead of 3 or 4, holding to an 11" gun caliber (depending on rate of fire rather than hitting power), using diesel engines, and using other methods of weight savings.. the ships ended up being small enough that to the eyes of a gullible world not wanting any conflict, they could pass for 10,000 tons.

You are correct though in saying they weren't meant to be major fleet units. They were designed as commerce raiders from the start. The term "Panzerschiffe" was used to disguise the true size / nature of the class... making it appear as though they were just over-gunned armored cruisers rather than small capital ships.

 

[GeoZero]

The "Graf Spee Class" as it was actually known (Graf Spee, Deutschland, and Admiral Scheer) had "designed speeds" of 26 knots, but actually made 28 to 28.5 knots in trials.

The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were actually built as "Battle Cruisers" and had designed speeds of 32 knots. NOTE: these battle cruisers (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) were rated at 17 knots in order to achieve their maximum range of approx. 10,000 miles (8,400km).

Also, the Graf Spee, Deutschland, and Admiral Scheer had been rated at 19 knots speeds to achieve 9,000-10,000 miles.

So while the ships can move faster during an engagement, one must also balance their "cruising speeds" in order to maintain effective operational range.