The Phoenix Rose, and taught the Turks the Art of War

[NosgothKingdom]

Ottomans always absorb the byzantines in my games (AIs).

My first game in Art of War was Byzantium and I have to say I had a harder time than the previous two times I played a BYZ game quite some time ago.

They seem to have tons of cash and manpower after you drive them off Europe, maybe new provinces in Anatolia or some Idea change (I didn't notice any). I don't know what, all I know is I had conquered all their european provinces with the usuall navy block and after that they remained a powerhouse, quickly united all of Anatolia and kept expanding. My alliance with the Mamluks caused them little hassle in expanding in the near east and into Mamluks territory.

I had to wait like 100 years while absorving everything in the balkans around Hungary and every island possible before I could launch a successful landwar in Anatolia and that in a time in which they had some enemy doomstacks roaming about so I could siege them and not engage their armies. Their armies still obliterated mine theirs being in smaller numbers - and they had way greater manpower and regiments still. After some more years, they started to lag in tech and I had some nice military ideas to help, then I managed to finally beat them. With great difficulty and the help of the Mamluks while they were in another war too.

The new thing is that BYZ seems to be richer now due to seemingly having more trade revenue, but the real bottleneck was manpower and overall army quality, so the extra cash didn't help much after the initial navy spam.

 

[JohnnyAlpha]

I doubt from what I see in the screenshots that taking Constantinople is their problem. From what I see its the aftermath of it and dealing with rebellions in Greece.

I agree. In my last four games, Constantinople was owned by Theodoro, Crimea, Venice, and Greece respectively. In all cases it had been taken by the Ottomans first. Clearly they just have trouble holding on against Greek patriots and then sometimes other powers intervene.

 

[Illianor123]

Epirus has spawned in each game I have played, taking all the Greek lands. Venice has either then come in and taken the lands, or had taken the lands from OE then lost them to Epirus

 

[Sandmann]

I can confirm the observation that the Ottos isn't getting anywhere or rarely take Constantinople in most games since 1.8.

 

[balmung60]

Ottomans always absorb the byzantines in my games (AIs).

It's not that they don't annex BYZ, it's that they don't annex it fast enough.

 

[Teije]

I can confirm the observation that the Ottos isn't getting anywhere or rarely take Constantinople in most games since 1.8.

Well, they certainly seem less successful now. In a Venice game, I took Constan early, and the Ottos never declared on me, even though they considerably outclassed me militarily. In other games, not involved in the region, I've seen the Ottos take out the Byzantines okay, but then proceed very cautiously, and seem to have problems with the Mamluks that they didn't have before. In 1620 in my current game, for example, they have taken Asia Minor/Greece, but only a few provinces in Georgia and Syria beyond that.

 

[Aethis]

I think out of all the games I have played the Ottomans beats the Byzantines by no later than 1500 and then blobs through the Middle East until someone like Austria and Russia get really big and squash them in the late game.

I played as the Byzantines as well and found it about 50/50 a to whether you will succeed, I built galleys en masse and waited for Ottomans to go to war with the Mamlukes or someone else in the east then declared war. It can go wrong if they get the mission to kill you instead.

So I personally think it should be left just the way it is.

 

[ChildeR]

The AI should be taught to rebuild their army elsewhere if they get stuck. It probably wouldn't save the Ottomans against a player controlled ERE taking back cores, but it would get rid of the most absurd "trap their army on an island" tactics to invade Anatolia. They might even be able to defend against an early allyless DoW when their armies are trapped in the east with mercs raised in Bulgaria, since the Byzantines can't afford a large army when they go all in with fleets.

 

[daveylacy]

The greeks rebel quickly and often.

 

[amonraa]

My bad, I only tried 3 times and at most I had about 25-ish before they decleared war. Will probably try again.

yes, i always crush the puny byzantine before they have a chance to build anything too.

 

[thErgonomic]

This is abit off topic, but has anybody else ever sold Constantinople to the Turks for that base tax increase and taken it back at later point?

 

[Aries666]

In all 5 games the ottos simply did not attack me. they milled around albania, then went after this anatolian minors, which is when I struck. Furthermore, I think the Mamluks are stronger now somehow, probably because of trade. The ottos still beat them, but they take horrific losses the first few wars and are slowed down considerably. Another factor of this is the stronger tunis, often an ally of the mamluks, and Qara isolating the ottos from the timirids and crimea.

After reestablishing the theme system, now I want to play my first otto game hehe. Maybe I can answer why they seem to super weak.

I think this is partly due to the Otto's taking "secure Eastern Anatolia" over "city of worlds desire", whether the former happens more often in AoW I don't know.

 

[DominusNovus]

I find that the Ottomans have a rough first decade or so. Mainly because they haven't taken humanist yet, and so the AI is trying to convert its orthodox provinces; it gives up on that idea the moment it takes humanist. And those missionaries raise unrest, and the empire is very vulnerable to being bisected.

 

[balmung60]

Or in the case of my Poland game, Christianized. The Turks managed to get flipped to Orthodox before they could even take Constantinople.

 

[FloatingOrb]

ok slogged on to the 1700s. Really smooth playthrough, especially after gettinga PU with muscovy. At this point I would just say that if you want an actual game, expand into europe rather than asia. You will get some challenge that way, I was not kidding about having no actual rivals.

 

[DominusNovus]

ok slogged on to the 1700s. Really smooth playthrough, especially after gettinga PU with muscovy. At this point I would just say that if you want an actual game, expand into europe rather than asia. You will get some challenge that way, I was not kidding about having no actual rivals.

Other than the fact that all your money is going to come from the east, since you'll want to control the trade networks from Constantinople. In my current Venice -> Byzantium game, once I managed to control the Indian trade, I focused more of my attention on restoring Trajan's borders. I'm just about there, it'd be easier if Burgundy would just know when to quit and stop sending highly trained armies to run interference in my gradual conquest of the Iberian peninsula. Of course, I wasn't going to do any of that, but then, well, I inherited France and, at that point, what else am I supposed to do?

 

[Pilot00]

This is abit off topic, but has anybody else ever sold Constantinople to the Turks for that base tax increase and taken it back at later point?

I was contemplating doing that, but if you do that and then reform the theme system, you need around 500 diplo to turn it to Greek again. I dont know even with accepted, if it is worth the trade boost if it remains Turkic culture.

 

[Andy578]

My bad, I only tried 3 times and at most I had about 25-ish before they decleared war. Will probably try again.

ally Poland and Austria and they won't dare attack then you just sit and wait for them to get into a big war and make your move. it helps if they go after the Mamluks since you can try to use their navy and they are big enough to keep the Ottoman armies distracted for awhile. also day one hire a diplo rep advisor and it'll make those alliances much easier, if there's none available just restart till there is

 

[ChildeR]

I was contemplating doing that, but if you do that and then reform the theme system, you need around 500 diplo to turn it to Greek again. I dont know even with accepted, if it is worth the trade boost if it remains Turkic culture.

Unless you are going for WC or something close, Turkish will likely stay an accepted culture for the rest of the game - especially if the buffed Constantinople is Turkish. So what's the downside?

 

[Korsan82]

Wait... You are saying that this game which became an arbitrary rules feast - which you should better study before you start a game- has bugs regarding these rules and their balance?
I'm baffled. I didn't see that comming...