The Phoenix Rose, and taught the Turks the Art of War

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FloatingOrb

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Excuse the exagerated title, I am still a bit high off of how potent byzantium is now. I always love the byzantium start, it was challenging with a good opportunity to steal the number 1 spot within a century and blob well. Part of that has changed with Art of War. They may need an actual direct nerf, not just a buff to thier neighbors.

With the changes to lithuania, the caucuses (excuse spelling please), and Qara, the good old mass galley start works again. Now you have to be clever, the ottos actually build a navy now, but if you have a good chance of blockading the sea of Marmara and taking most of greece and bulgaria in the first 15 years of the game. First 15 years since you want to wait for call for peace to make the ottos suffer the war exhaustion. BUT WAIT! There is more!

The next massive buff to byzantium is the new imperial buffs and how unrest works. If you go religious idea first, you can get 9% true faith tolerance, which basically means that no orthodox province will ever revolt. Period. its about 20% reduction in unrest with 2 stability, which isnt hard to have the religious idea stab reduction and the byzantium national idea. This means you can spam reduce autonomy, which ties well with the natural imperial bonus of -10 autonomy. Your basically making ramping new provinces to full production within 2 decades, max.

There is even more though! This may not be new, but there is presently a psudo bug where if you conquer a sunni province that is your core, you can get orthodox rebels that, if you accept thier demands, give you another missionary strength. you can easily get 7% missionary strength by 1480 without taking act of uniformity, which you should take because unrest doesnt mean squat to Byzantium.

Another massive bonus is the new trade. Yes this made everyone bloody rich, but byzantium lives and dies on it's trade, and now if you take quantity you can sport armies that rival France by the 1500s.

To conclude, I think Byzantium is the new Eastern France. The Ottos simply can not handle your navy if you take thier northern lands, and none of your other neighbors can challenge you unless you decide to mess with Austria. I am curious to see if anyone else has had similar experiences, or noticed new emerging op powers.
 

FloatingOrb

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oh, one other point. Technically the commonwealth can beat you in the ground, but Moldavia seems to block them completely since it's now a march. Thats why you have no rivals unless you expand to Austria.
 

Holland989

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Is this a problem you also experience when the AI controls Byzantium?
I have seen the Ottomans gobble as usual, having conquered the Mamluks by 1600 etc. and being a relative stable great power.
 

balmung60

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empire government type lowers autonomy like absolute monarchy, or constitutional monarchy. I don't remember the number
-0.1/mo, same as Administrative Monarchy.

And with how hard I've seen the Ottomans derp and derp and derp and derp since 1.8, I should imagine that it's easier than ever. I've not seen the Ottomans expand past Anatolia in the east and not past the Balkans in the west without some helpful nudging (read: doing their dirty work for them) by me.
 

Ricox

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Is this a problem you also experience when the AI controls Byzantium?
I have seen the Ottomans gobble as usual, having conquered the Mamluks by 1600 etc. and being a relative stable great power.

In my last Denmark > Scandinavia game, Byzantium managed to take most of Greece and territories around Constantinople (in the Greek part), even had one random Turkish province in the north. They have collapsed now, but they hold well for at least a century, so that's weird.
 

Pilot00

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Greek Rebels now eat the Ottoman AI for breakfast. I have seen the likes of Greece/Epirus/Byzantium/InsertwhatevercanformGreece at an alarmingly rate in my games.
 

FloatingOrb

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Just got back from class then tested the galley thing again to make sure it wasn't just a freak occurrence for my first play through.

For the galleys, you should just out build the ottomans. I started 4 games and each time I got to about 43 galleys with them at roughly 37 ish. The you just park your fleet on their largest wandering fleet, you know how ais have their navies just goofing around a lot, kill it, and then run to mamara. I should also say that after this war you should eat serbia and bosnia, you are going to need the manpower to push into Anatolia. You should not even have to take out loans.

Imperial Local Authority thing is -.10, sorry for being unclear.

For AI byzantium, I actually tried them again because I have seen them push the turks out of greece a few times in Art of War, and the ottos never seem to grow as large as they used to. Have never played the ottomans before, so I can tell you why they suck now.

Another thing that I missed, the Theme system actually gives +25% manpower along with the base tax and manpower bonus to constantinople...
 
Last edited:

hitchens

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Just got back from class then tested the galley thing again to make sure it wasn't just a freak occurrence for my first play through.

For the galleys, you should just out build the ottomans. I started 4 games and each time I got to about 43 galleys with them at roughly 37 ish. The you just park your fleet on their largest wandering fleet, you know how ais have their navies just goofing around a lot, kill it, and then run to mamara. I should also say that after this war you should eat serbia and bosnia, you are going to need the manpower to push into Anatolia. You should not even have to take out loans.


My bad, I only tried 3 times and at most I had about 25-ish before they decleared war. Will probably try again.
 

Pilot00

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Ohhhhhhhhh damn you all, I love the ERE so much :3 I took an oath that I wont play the game till they patch the mess that is now, but you gents made me start installing it again...Now I have to buy AoW too, you are responsible for my crying wallet and 5th time ill lock myself into my dungeon :p
 

Freudia

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Is this a problem you also experience when the AI controls Byzantium?
I have seen the Ottomans gobble as usual, having conquered the Mamluks by 1600 etc. and being a relative stable great power.

I've seen Ottomans eat Byzantium and then explode to rebels.

I'm not sure why Ottomans are underperforming though; they definitely have the tools to invade BYZ at game start and can win, so I don't get why the AI is so hesitant.
 

FloatingOrb

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In all 5 games the ottos simply did not attack me. they milled around albania, then went after this anatolian minors, which is when I struck. Furthermore, I think the Mamluks are stronger now somehow, probably because of trade. The ottos still beat them, but they take horrific losses the first few wars and are slowed down considerably. Another factor of this is the stronger tunis, often an ally of the mamluks, and Qara isolating the ottos from the timirids and crimea.

After reestablishing the theme system, now I want to play my first otto game hehe. Maybe I can answer why they seem to super weak.
 

tfjs

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When playing as Otto it is so easy to eat the byz up and before you've even finished with Albania. Perhaps they need actually completing the City of the World's Desire mission prioritising not just the picking of it. Really as soon as Albania is done with they should be straight onto them but as you say when an AI they just don't and end up distracted and fail to fulfil their potential. Obviously it would make Byz very hard - as in you have as long as it takes to siege Albania then you are next.
 

Pilot00

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I doubt from what I see in the screenshots that taking Constantinople is their problem. From what I see its the aftermath of it and dealing with rebellions in Greece.
 

sceluk

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Ottomans certainly dont seem to be having trouble in my games. Ate Hungary and the Mamluks by 1550. Stopped pushing into Europe only cause I rekt their face as PLC.
 

balmung60

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Part of the problem is that the Ottomans are too keen on war reparations over actually annexing Byzantium and the Beyliks.

Another problem is Crimea. The Ottomans get into stupid war after stupid war to help this weak excuse for a state.