The Phantom Kingdom of Jerusalem

[Bishop Arundel]

As the King of England I won a crusade for Jerusalem against a larger than normal Fatimid Sultanate. I wanted to set up some of my more competent relatives there, rather than abdicate in much my much larger and safer kingdom so I set up one of my nephews as king and duke of Jerusalem, and a son, nephew and grandson as the the other three dukes. Now 3 of these of these relatives were already barons in castles in Wales, Dorset and Flanders respectively. I thought that if they lost Jerusalem they'd just go back to being barons with a story to tell and if they survived I could find a reason to take the castles back 100-200 years down the line. The Fatimids invaded killing the first nephew, meaning second nephew took his throne, they then took over the rest of the kingdom of Jerusalem's territory. The Kingdom still exists as a political entity though run from the three baronies in North-Western Europe that I previously mentioned. The former duke of Galilee my character's grandson has give up the ghost and settled into life as a dogsbody for the Earl of Wiltshire, but my nephew who is king plus duke of Jerusalem and OutreJordan with my son who is still duke of Ascalon as is his on;y vassal. The Kingdom of Jerusalem still shows up as a state in the ledger, it is still entering into dynastic marriages with Irish and Occitian counts, and due to being called on in an alliance, 200 troops of the kingdom of Jerusalem are currently taking part in a French inter-count dispute.

Is this a bug or is this supposed to happen? If a new crusade for Jerusalem is announced and won in 50 years time, will the king automatically be a descendent of the current king even if he's spent his entire life in a castle in Pembrokeshire apart from the odd minor war? Has this happened to anyone else?

 

[arothuris]

I think your nephew's heir will lose the king title upon succession? I'm not sure but I had a similar case before. I as Oghuz took the whole of Khiva from the previous king, but he had a castle somewhere in Arabia, and he fleed there with the king title and duke title of Khiva. I would usurp it but just didn't bother, coz I didn't want those titles. I check on him from time to time, and after he died, his heir became vassal of that county holder where the castle is, and he didn't inherit neither the duke nor the king title. Dun know why though, and haven't been able to figure out so far. Maybe u would check back on your nephew after a generation?

 

[Talq]

Even historically, it didn't die with Guy. Although it did morph into King of Cyprus as primary (because suffice to say, Cyprus would not have been regarded as a kingdom on its own). It is (sort of) supposed to happen.

Edit: I have seen the game simply vacate a title once it had no barony, despite it having a mosque and city (but it cheerily let it be inherited prior to that despite it not even having a county).

 

[Simmy93]

This isn't a bug, it's actually a remarkable example of titular kings at their best. Basically, until the Fatimids usurp the dukedoms, and the kingdom, those people will retain their titles. Until someone claims to be the Sultan of Jerusalem, and owns the land, your son's claim is recognized. Just because a King has no land doesn't mean he isn't a King ordained by God. His descendents will, until the title is lost keep the title King of Jerusalem. You may want to research how many you'd have to kill to have the title return to your character, it's usually not that many.

However if you want to keep this rather lovely entity, I encourage you to. It adds flavor to have the disgraced King of Jerusalem trying to make his way back into power, after all, perhaps the Irish will, through marriage inherit the title and suddenly Jerusalem will be a little closer to home!

 

[Talq]

Given that muslims can't form the kingdom of jerusalem....

 

[telegraph]

they do not need to be able to form it in order to usurp it.

 

[Bishop Arundel]

Eventually it seems they lost the title (I was in the middle of a massive civil war so didn't pay too much attention until it happened). I did notice though that the three baronies did become two independent states. The one in Wales and Belgium under the former kings line and the one in Dorset eventually declared independence and went it alone. How do I get a casus Beli to make them my vassals again? It would also be a help as thanks to an ill-thought out decision to award a barony to a catholicised anglicized Andalusian I have a spanish sunni emirate holding a castle in Powys in the Middle of my British Empire.

 

[anonymouswolfm]

As the King of England I won a crusade for Jerusalem against a larger than normal Fatimid Sultanate. I wanted to set up some of my more competent relatives there, rather than abdicate in much my much larger and safer kingdom so I set up one of my nephews as king and duke of Jerusalem, and a son, nephew and grandson as the the other three dukes. Now 3 of these of these relatives were already barons in castles in Wales, Dorset and Flanders respectively. I thought that if they lost Jerusalem they'd just go back to being barons with a story to tell and if they survived I could find a reason to take the castles back 100-200 years down the line. The Fatimids invaded killing the first nephew, meaning second nephew took his throne, they then took over the rest of the kingdom of Jerusalem's territory. The Kingdom still exists as a political entity though run from the three baronies in North-Western Europe that I previously mentioned. The former duke of Galilee my character's grandson has give up the ghost and settled into life as a dogsbody for the Earl of Wiltshire, but my nephew who is king plus duke of Jerusalem and OutreJordan with my son who is still duke of Ascalon as is his on;y vassal. The Kingdom of Jerusalem still shows up as a state in the ledger, it is still entering into dynastic marriages with Irish and Occitian counts, and due to being called on in an alliance, 200 troops of the kingdom of Jerusalem are currently taking part in a French inter-count dispute.

Is this a bug or is this supposed to happen? If a new crusade for Jerusalem is announced and won in 50 years time, will the king automatically be a descendent of the current king even if he's spent his entire life in a castle in Pembrokeshire apart from the odd minor war? Has this happened to anyone else?

As someone else has mentioned, upon your nephew's death the kingdom title would be lost; his successor would become a mere baron. If you want to preserve this interesting state of affairs, you should give your nephew a county; that way the kingdom can be kept.

About future crusaders - if they are won, the person with the highest contribution will get the lands but NOT the title. He can, however, usurp it from the current holder if the conditions are satisfied.

It's all working as intended and in a way that it should be.

 

[NewbieOne]

As someone else has mentioned, upon your nephew's death the kingdom title would be lost; his successor would become a mere baron. If you want to preserve this interesting state of affairs, you should give your nephew a county; that way the kingdom can be kept.

About future crusaders - if they are won, the person with the highest contribution will get the lands but NOT the title. He can, however, usurp it from the current holder if the conditions are satisfied.

It's all working as intended and in a way that it should be.

Actually, if you win a crusade for an existing, formed kingdom, for example Jerusalem in some of the later starts where the de facto kingdom is tiny, the land goes to the holder of the title. If he managed to hold on to the title of King of Jerusalem as a French count (which is exactly what people tried to do in history until every European ruler was a claimant and used it), he'd still get the entire de iure, no matter England or the HRE won the crusade.

The problem with crusading states is that there is no truce for the new king, while there is the tax and levy modifier meaning he gets no taxes or troops at all in the beginning, while every Muslim ruler can declare holy war on him. This is a tedious thing to manage.

 

[Lwantssugar]

Something similar happened once:
I won Jeruselem in a crusade, I gave all the counties to the pope but kept the Kingdom title for myself. Eventually it's invaded by someone (Fatimids or Mongols I can't remember) but I still have the title King of Jeruselem. An entire century passes, I'm empress of Britania and a crusade is called for... Jeruselem? "I own that title already don't I?" so I look at my character screen and sure enough I still have the title KoJ, and then I look at the Crusade tool tip and it says something along the likes of "since Jeruselem is already held by a Catholic all land won will go to Empress x of Britania" since it was a low risk investment and would be getting the land either way I joined in and won. Funny thing is it was against the Ilkhanate which had randomly converted to a catholic heresy, first time I've ever seen a crusade against someone that isn't Muslim...

 

[liamgamer55]

they do not need to be able to form it in order to usurp it.

Are you sure? IIRC that's not how it works.

The bit in the code that says requirements to form it applies for usurping as well.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

The problem with crusading states is that there is no truce for the new king, while there is the tax and levy modifier meaning he gets no taxes or troops at all in the beginning, while every Muslim ruler can declare holy war on him. This is a tedious thing to manage.

I find the only way to do it is to keep a rich Duchy back in Europe as part of your Desmene that can finance the mercs you are going to need for the first years of the KoJ. Now this means handing out a bit more land than I like to in the Levant, but what can you do? It also helps if you are Frankish or Italian to grant titles to the Knights Templar or Hospitaller respectively so you can maintain their troops as a permanent super-retinue. I couldn't imagine going it alone without some lands to finance your colonization.

 

[tnick0225]

This happens having a King in Exile especially with KoJ. I had a game as England, and won the Crusade, set up my cousin who was a general during the Crusade as King so I wouldn't have to deal with that mess. Well the Fatimids took it all back 20 years later and his heir shows up in my court in London as a King. He spent most his time writing to the Pope though petitioning for a second Crusade to retake his Kingdom.

The Crusade got called and Christendom this time got their ass handed to them, mostly because I was entangled with the French. After another 15 years they lost their King title and that branch of the fam-bam had to settle as being Dukes of Munster instead.

 

[Jake Dust]

Well, you know, it is quite realistic, as King Juan Carlos I of Spain is the king of Jerusalem nowadays.

 

[grisamentum]

they do not need to be able to form it in order to usurp it.

Muslims cannot and will not usurp the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

 

[Wezqu]

Muslims cannot and will not usurp the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Yeah creation rules effect usurpation too. They don't anymore district you from giving out titles as that was a bug.