The Persistent Problem With "Enduring" and "Venerable" Leaders

[TwiceAHuman]

So, 2.3. is pretty nice, (at least when it works). However, I feel like there are several issues that we tend to traditionally ignore in this game. So, here's a modest issue in the current game concept. It is not very relevant perhaps, but it is still persists in my opinion.

In my opinion, traits must only provide bonuses that cannot be drowned out by stacking repeatables or other bonuses, or putting it more simply: traits are only valuable if they provide a buff of some stat that by nature can only be increased by a finite amount. This is indeed the case for most traits (as far as I know "industrious" and the like are multiplicative values).
However, this is not the case with leader longevity traits, as the related repeatables and modifiers are year-based, not percentage based. This greatly diminishes the value of these traits, as when we take "enduring" trait, we exchange 1 priceless trait point (and a trait pick, no less) on something that can be gained via 4 repeatables, without taking other modifiers into account. "Venerable" traits admittedly has larger impact, but it costs entire 4 trait points and its value only diminishes as the time goes on.
In my opinion, the year-based modifiers could be replaced by percentile-based ones in 5 years = 6,25% ratio, (as 6,25% derived from 80 is 5 years) as a possible solution. This will deliver greater impact for enduring/venerable leaders, giving those traits some value, as 100*0.0625=6.25 and 160*0.0625=10. It's a fairly little thing, but that's why in my opinion why these traits never received much love to begin with.

 

[glee8e]

the like are multiplicative values

I'm not quite certain, but back in 2.1 they are also additive. I believe there is no reason for 2.2 they become multiplicative.

Anyhow, trait is mostly an early-mid game thing. Their buff is mostly significant early on. If you wish them to be still significant in end game, you need to pick bio ascesion. Otherwise bio ascesion becomes meaningless: if everyone can get significant bonus from genemodding, why pick bio ascesion?

For venerable in particular, well, within a reasonable time frame (like 2200 to 2500) venerable is not trival at all. +80yr is 16 level of repeatables. Considering repeatable cost has a slow exponential growth, this probably worth that 4 trait point. The problem with venerable is actually it has a glazing 4pt cost, on par with most advanced trait. 4 tait point is just too large a sum for anyone who didn't pick bio ascension, not to mention those who picked bio will prefer robust instead. Breaking venerable down to +45yr/2pt would make it an actually viable trait.

EDIT: Just checked, these traits also uses XXX_produces_mult, which is additive.

 

[Wolfgang I]

I like venerable as a RP pick. It is nice if you plan on using xenos for most things which.

 

[Less2]

Traits like Industrious are additive with other effects the same way the longevity traits are additive with other longevity boosters. A trait giving +15% to energy production always gives +0.6 (15% of base 4) energy produced per technician, it doesn't become more valuable the more other energy boosting effects you have.

 

[mergele]

Yes, simply 4 repeatables, easy.. I think I got to level 4 repetables last spring when I kept a game going far past it's expiration date with the express purpose of doing exactly that.

 

[Novacat]

Yes, simply 4 repeatables, easy.. I think I got to level 4 repetables last spring when I kept a game going far past it's expiration date with the express purpose of doing exactly that.

...My current game I have gotten up to level 50+ in repeatables, my engineering research alternates between kinetic damage and armor, my physics research alternates between shield and energy damage, and my society research alternates between army damage, army health, and admin cap.

Of course, this was a species that was hand-crafted, and had the helping of events, to stack a ridiculous amount of research boni, with most planets dedicated to research. The alloys and consumer goods production were offloaded to ecumenpoli, and I deliberately kept my empire size just below my admin cap.

...and yes, the lag is atrocious. It usually takes me an entire day just to get past a few decades in game. I have barely gotten halfway through the mid-game years.

 

[Incompetent]

The point of Enduring/Venerable is to give your initial leaders a better chance to survive until you get the techs to extend their lifespan. The reason why that's important is the sheer amount of time it takes to accumulate enough experience to reach the highest levels of leadership.

 

[Scottbert]

What Incompetent said. Plus, research is fungible. Time spent researching those repeatables could have been spent researching something else.

 

[Zenopath]

in response to op,

enduring is valuable pick because your first leaders will probably die unless you take them.

what year do you start getting repeatable life buffs? can you keep your tech going so fast that you research +10 leader lifespan within first 40 years and get another +10 years every 10 years there after?

i cant. not consistently, its always a race, often i am watching tech progress of a leader life extention tech and looking at my oldest most valuable leaders sitting at 1-3% monthly death chance and thinking, "common, just a little longer, old guy, you can do it!"

enduring makes it so you have a much better odds of getting life extensions in place before your eldest generation, the ones who have all the bonus perks from exploring priceless amenities, the ones with like 4 different tech skills, etc alive. Once they are gone you will never get leaders as powerful as the scientists who you sent out to explore the galaxy.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

Multiplicative bonus would be interesting for both lifespan and resourse production traits. It'll make species more unique, which is a good thing in my opinion.
Though I wouldn't call the absence of such mechanics a problem.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

I like venerable as a RP pick. It is nice if you plan on using xenos for most things which.

Yes, but it still can be better as for species that live for hundreds of years. Like those giant precursor people who were literally died out because of stupidity.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Yes, simply 4 repeatables, easy.. I think I got to level 4 repetables last spring when I kept a game going far past it's expiration date with the express purpose of doing exactly that.

I don't want to be overly passive agressive, but that betrays lack of science/cohesion management. Many people I know, myself included have first repeatables BEFORE crisis and several dozens by the time the game reaches too-boring-to-play stage. Experimentation shows that even min-maxing science traits in not required for this. In fact, nothing is. Just build them labs.

 

[mergele]

I don't want to be overly passive agressive, but that betrays lack of science/cohesion management. Many people I know, myself included have first repeatables BEFORE crisis and several dozens by the time the game reaches too-boring-to-play stage. Experimentation shows that even min-maxing science traits in not required for this. In fact, nothing is. Just build them labs.

No offense taken considering my comment was pretty much in the same veine. I generally get the first repeatable around the time of the crises (generally a little later it seems since 2.2). though I also have the crisis hit 50 years earlier, so I guess that balances out. All I want to say is, no for me venerable is not esily replaced.

 

[Ridixo]

There are more important things that change a trait right now in the game. Maybe your idea is good, maybe is bad, i don't know what impact it would have. Still i think that if it's not broken don't fix it, and neither leaders longevity nor longevity traits are not broken.

 

[RoverStorm]

Few things to unpack here.

1. Pretty much every modifier in the game is additive, not multiplicative. I already addressed in a separate thread why this is a very, very good thing, but basically it's designed so you can look at something and know exactly what it provides. True, one could also use something along the lines of "Every Miner generates +0.6 minerals per month" instead of +15% minerals from miners (and THIS is why mining guilds are still amazing; they are +25% minerals from miners!), I guess, but there are a tiny handful of modifiers that DO multiply (or at least there used to be and they could add mode), so it's not guaranteed that it's always +0.6. For example, before 2.2 the Pacifist ethics gave +5% and +10% resource production, and that WAS multiplicative with other bonuses. At the moment, I cannot think of any multiplicative bonuses in 2.2 (the bonus from stability is additive I think), but I could just be looking in the wrong places.

2. Nearly all traits can be "drowned out by repeatables"; that's not really why you take a trait. In a normal game where you manage to avoid getting bullied by the AI/players, you are probably only getting 4 repeatables TOPS before a end-game crisis shows up, maybe a small handful more if you are materialist. And by your own logic, why ever take industrial? It's bonus can be obtained by a mere THREE repeatables! A lot of things can be improved by repeatables, except unity and research itself. If we were going exclusively on that, the only traits that should ever be taken are weird ones like communal's -10% housing needs, which currently do not yet have a repeatable that improves it (or really actually almost nothing improves the amount of housing things provide either). The point is, the reason you take a trait is to gain an advantage in a particular area before the end-game crisis.

And the advantage of Enduring and Venerable is getting more bonus out of leader's "high levels" before they kick the can. Side bonus of getting more years out of a really good ruler trait as well, but there's also the risk of a bad trait being stuck on a dictator/emperor for a very long time. In particular, a normal game I usually find myself going through about 4 generations of leaders, but then typically only going through about 2 with the venerable trait.

Seriously though, Venerable is actually extremely powerful if you focus on leaders a bit. Leaders can only be as young as 28, and start dying at age 80. The math says that they are going to work between 52 and 60 years on average. (It occurs to me that a leader "death" might also be a retirement, as I doubt EVERY SINGLE LEADER in the galaxy never ONCE experiences health issues that force a retirement) Venerable gives +80 years to their lifespan-more than DOUBLING their effective working time, and this is after gaining levels as well. Even enduring is a solid increase of somewhere between 33%-40% working lifespan, which is a huge boost early-game and even mid-late game. A governor gives resource production per level, so having high level governors is extremely powerful.

 

[Theter]

At the moment, I cannot think of any multiplicative bonuses in 2.2 (the bonus from stability is additive I think), but I could just be looking in the wrong places..

Not the main subject here but you are wrong :
- Mining guild is multiplicative with jobs bonus as it a base enhancement from miners.
- Research and research speed are multiplicative. Dedicated empires throwing 100% bonus on science output AND research speed basically multiply by 4 their research.
- To a lesser extent, Naval Capacity is multiplicative getting both fixed bonus (bonus from soldier tech or anchorage for example) and percentage bonus, mining guild like

 

[RoverStorm]

Not the main subject here but you are wrong :
- Mining guild is multiplicative with jobs bonus as it a base enhancement from miners.
- Research and research speed are multiplicative. Dedicated empires throwing 100% bonus on science output AND research speed basically multiply by 4 their research.
- To a lesser extent, Naval Capacity is multiplicative getting both fixed bonus (bonus from soldier tech or anchorage for example) and percentage bonus, mining guild like

All very true, I should have clarified I was referring to multiplicative modifiers, like 2.1 Pacifist's 5% resource output which multiplied with all other bonuses, rather than additive. It was a percent that was multiplied with other percent modifiers, which I cannot think of a current case except, as you pointed out, +X% research from jobs and +X% Research Speed ARE multiplicative.