The Papal States

[Marshall Thomas]

I'm playing my first game as The Papal States (actually my first game as any government type other than a monarchy) and it's quite different. So far (and I'm only in the first few years), it seems like there's a lot less to do then when playing as a monarchy. I'm having trouble getting use to the idea that I can't annex vassals.

Do you enjoy playing as The Papal States? What do you usually do? Should I just begin again as Milan instead? or Tuscany (for a different government type)?

I chose The Papal States (never played as them in EU3 either) mainly because I've been watching the mini-series, The Borgias (with Jeremy Irons as Alexander). In the show, Alexander seems to spend most of his time on diplomacy; more specifically, on royal marriages (he has four children). This, of course, isn't possible in EU4 as a Papal government.

Thanks in advance.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Monarchies have a tremendous advantage over other governments mainly due to their full legitimacy bonuses and royal marriage. Republic loses out on this but to compensate, gets more control over where their ruler is skilled in and have no problem with regencies. Theocracies are basically like a republic that does not have republican tradition and have no control over their ruler's stats. Not a tremendous disadvantage by a long shot but certainly makes for a less engaging play-through as far as government specific actions are involved.

I currently have a Papal States game myself but I would say that the best thing about playing them is that you can role play as the Pope bent on world conquest but other than, there is nothing that really set them apart from playing the other Italian states. As you may already be aware, Milanhas an event that gives you the opportunity to change into an unique republican government. However, if you really want royal marriages but don't want to play a straight up monarchy, Tuscany would be a interesting option as noble republics are basically republics that can have royal marriages (but no PUs) thus enabling them to diplo-vassalize.

Not to mention that being out of the HRE, the Papal States also have a fairly rough start compared to Tuscany and the larger Milan.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

Monarchies have a tremendous advantage over other governments mainly due to their full legitimacy bonuses and royal marriage. Republic loses out on this but to compensate, gets more control over where their ruler is skilled in and have no problem with regencies. Theocracies are basically like a republic that does not have republican tradition and have no control over their ruler's stats. Not a tremendous disadvantage by a long shot but certainly makes for a less engaging play-through as far as government specific actions are involved.

I currently have a Papal States game myself but I would say that the best thing about playing them is that you can role play as the Pope bent on world conquest but other than, there is nothing that really set them apart from playing the other Italian states. As you may already be aware, Milanhas an event that gives you the opportunity to change into an unique republican government. However, if you really want royal marriages but don't want to play a straight up monarchy, Tuscany would be a interesting option as noble republics are basically republics that can have royal marriages (but no PUs) thus enabling them to diplo-vassalize.

Not to mention that being out of the HRE, the Papal States also have a fairly rough start compared to Tuscany and the larger Milan.

Thanks for your reply. Any suggestions for The Papal States first idea? I'm having trouble deciding.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ivashanko]

Some mods will probably make it many times more unique.

 

[AgentBuckshotMo]

The unique bonuses of theocracies are that they don't lose stability when the leader dies. The Papal State also gets +10 or so to tolerance of the true faith after all ideas are complete, so even at -3 stability and during stupid things like liberalism or peasant's war you're not really going to have to deal with many revolts.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Thanks for your reply. Any suggestions for The Papal States first idea? I'm having trouble deciding.

Thanks in advance.

I think the ideas in general is really up to preference. In my current game I took diplomatic ideas to get that extra diplomat since I feel that 2 has always been quite limiting, especially if you got some AE running around. The reduced time to fabricate claim also decreases the chances that your fabrication will be discovered (which gives a 10 solid AE and it really hurts when you already have some AE running). Alternatively, if you want to rake in the dough and don't mind waiting a bit for AE to go down, you can take the trade ideas to get some boosts to trade power as well as opening up more slots to build your trade fleets (every additional merchant = +5 to naval limit).

I wouldn't recommend taking admin ideas as your first group since you'll be quite short on admin power due to the need to expand just to survive and you'll want to reach admin 7 soon so you can open up your second tree. Ycertainly cant go wrong by starting with the offensive/defensive trees. Avoid the quantity trees since manpower bonus and manpower recovery only affects province manpower or in short, your total max manpower minus 10,000. So for papacy with 15k manpower, 50% manpower bonus would only provide about 2.5k more manpower. Quantity trees are simply not worth it for a minor power.

The Papal State also gets +10 or so to tolerance of the true faith after all ideas are complete, so even at -3 stability and during stupid things like liberalism or peasant's war you're not really going to have to deal with many revolts.

The tolerance really is crazy. -7 at the start, -9 when you get the first NI. Catholic provinces really like their Pope. EDIT: Although non Catholic provinces would likely give you hell. Dat -6 tolerance of heretics. The Pope hates heretics more than heathens.

 

[TheRevanchist]

You can't annex vassals as a theocracy?

 

[fleetothemoon]

You can't annex vassals as a theocracy?

You can but you cannot diplovassalize them as that requires royal marriage.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Join the HRE. This way you can fight the Italian minors without Austria hammering down. Once you do that, try to vassalize as many minors as you can, and eventually annex them. If Naples becomes independent, then you can try to take some land from them too.

Once you get a decent foothold in Northern Italy, I recommend going east. Vassalize Serbia, Bosnia, Ragusa etc. Annex those and then, with the help of some allies, in my case Poland and Austria, fight the Ottomans. Take provinces that have Greek minor cores, like Epirus, Achaea, Athens, or even Byzantium. Release Byzantium if possible and feed it Greek lands. Slowly but surely you'll weaken the Ottomans. An alliance with the Mamlukes are also very helpful.

Once the Ottomans are wiped out, go into Asia Minor, fight whoever is there. You should have no problem since your units are stronger and you might even have allies to help you.

This was my Papal game I finished:

 

[cholliman]

The Papal states are very fun. Definitely take Dakilla's advice and join the HRE - makes uniting Italy way easier. The only thing I was disappointed in was that after enacting the "Kingdom of God" decision, I was expecting some sort of cool color or having the Papacy's name changed on the map.

 

[dstarsboy]

If you conquer Northern Italy as the Papal States you can form the Kingdom of God, which kills the Curia.... but don't do it. It's not worth it. No name or flag change, you lose Curia bonuses, total hogwash.

Forming the Kingdom of God was the only reason I played the Papal States (since you can't own the HRE...) but once I formed it and realized how crappy it was, I stopped playing that game.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Forming the Kingdom of God was the only reason I played the Papal States (since you can't own the HRE...) but once I formed it and realized how crappy it was, I stopped playing that game.

Agreed. 10% MP bonus for the curia? Not worth it, even after you can no longer call crusades. Should increase this me thinks.

 

[TheRevanchist]

Agreed. 10% MP bonus for the curia? Not worth it, even after you can no longer call crusades. Should increase this me thinks.

They should give it something OP. Like permanent curia bonus, plus crusades until 1821, plus permanent Holy War/Deus Vult CB.

 

[PandaL]

Forming KoG right now is more like a role-playing decision. Considering the slow pace of expansion within HRE (especially without PU), Papal State will not really have MP problem when they are able to form KoG. (Even more so if you have conquered southern Italy or even further)

 

[Dakilla TM]

The picture wasn't showing up but here it is!

Theocracies are very unique and fun! Their limitations makes them interesting!

 

[MadDjinn]

They should give it something OP. Like permanent curia bonus, plus crusades until 1821, plus permanent Holy War/Deus Vult CB.

Why not something better and painful --

With the Curia gone, the Pope should be able to ask Catholic nations to break their alliances with non-Catholics (dem bad pplz).

If the country likes the Pope more than their ally, they would do it. Give it a cost of -20 relations with all Catholics, -50 with Protestants/Reformers and -100 with the country being dumped.

As well, give the Pope a +25 modifier to requesting diplo-vassilization with Catholics (and a -20 for Protestants/Reformers). Since you're forming the 'kingdom of God' and you got the whole 'king of kings' thing going, it'd fit flavour wise.

 

[Bonafide]

Kingdom of God should abolish the Curia and instead give the full power to the Pope instead. That makes sense because the Papal States basically IS the Curia at that point. Maybe it's too OP?

 

[spoffy]

Take diplomacy, defensive and administrative for your first three ideas. The Papal State gets a -20% claim time, with the added -50% from diplo you can fabricate claims in 109 days, and administrative helps you core your newly taken lands on the cheap. Defensive bonuses plus high level forts on the mountains in northern Italy and France will break itself on your border. After that Innovative is pretty good in combination with defensive to give you mighty generals all the time plus other good bonuses. Quality or Offensive are also good. You may consider Naval and Trade as well. Don't bother with Religious; you'll have plenty of missionary power just by decisions.

Join the Empire ASAP, take out Urbino ASAP, then eat the Italian minors. Vassalize Milan and feed them Brescia + whatever else they'll take in Northern Italy. Backstab Venice when possible. Hope Aragon loses the PU with Naples before they integrate it (or Castille PU's them and gets it). Try to beat them up a few times so they lose prestige, or cancel it outright if you can. Attack the Ottomans when they're weak and vassal/feed Byzantium if you can.

Build forts on the mountains, as mentioned earlier, and economic buildings on your best provinces. Rome, Milan, Savoie and Venice are all 10+ basetax and the rest aren't far behind. You can make a ton of money just off an upgraded Italy.

Don't bother forming the KoG, or if you do, wait until 1650 when you lose some of the powers of the curia anyway.

 

[dstarsboy]

Kingdom of God should abolish the Curia and instead give the full power to the Pope instead. That makes sense because the Papal States basically IS the Curia at that point. Maybe it's too OP?

No, this isn't OP. At the time that i formed the KoG I was easily able to keep 3-4 cardinals up at all times without breaking a sweat. Controlling the Curia is cake if you "don't" form the KoG, thus, forming KoG should ideally just get rid of the annoyance behind distributing papal influence all of the time and simply give you the curia permanently.

 

[delpiero1234]

The Papal States are shit because...
1) ... the Italian NI are much, much better
2) ... it's a theocracy (Papacy) --> no diplo-vassalzation &no PUs,
3)... its rulers are always old and die frequently
4) ... it cannot change government form
5) ... forming the Kingdom of God is silly as it disables the Papacy.

The Papal State are good because...
1) ... if they control the curia they can excommunicate any catholic country

So we have five reasons why the Papal States suck and one why it's good.