The Panjab Problem -- Unifying India

[ThunderHawk3]

This post is half a document of my experience, half a plea for advice.

I've read a number of posts asking about the unification of India. Someone asked what the best country was to attempt the reunification and someone else said they thought Panjab was the best candidate. It has the largest population and army. I shrugged my shoulders and decided to give it a try. I realized the task itself was going to be borderline impossible (becoming a Great Power and forcing Britain out of India seemed daunting enough as was) but I didn't realize just how out of my depth I was.

First of all, Panjab isn't the best candidate for forming India - it's the only candidate. There are only five countries that can form India (excepting Crown From The Gutter events) that aren't British satellites at the start of the game: Sindh, Kutch, Nepal, Sikkim, and Panjab. (Kalat and Makran actually can't.) Of those, all but Panjab are single-region states with 4 brigades or fewer. Sindh has about 500K relevant population and four brigades, Nepal has 250K and four brigades, Kutch has 77K and three brigades, and Sikkim has 14K and just one brigade. These four are either swallowed by more powerful neighbors, notably Britain, with a decade or sphered by Britain, ending their ambitions in India. The former is much more likely than the latter.

Panjab, on the other hand, has three regions and a whopping 2.7 million in population, making it the largest of the Indian states (even including the British vassals). It fields and impressive fifteen brigades at the start of the game with an immediate capacity of 21, which actually puts you pretty high up the leaderboard in terms of troop numbers (13th overall, says the ledger). Your troop count can be driven higher almost immediately by military spending, too.

Nevertheless, it became immediately clear to me that playing Panjab was the hardest challenge I had ever faced as a V2 player, much harder than Hawaii or Korea or any of the other uncivs I had dabbled with. Why? You share borders with the UK, China, and Afghanistan at the start of the game. All of them have stronger armies than you do, and they're all gunning right for you. You don't have the lowest literacy in the game but you can see the bottom from here: at 3.6% lit and less than 1% starting clergy, your research advances at a crawl. You have no diplomatic power, either. It's just those 15 starting brigades between you and oblivion.

I quickly discovered that everything is upside-down in a Panjab game. Infamy is good, offense is defense, and expansion is bad. I'll explain what I mean below.

I played a few games as Panjab. I learned the hard way that you can't open with an attack as Panjab. Immediate expansion might seem tempting. Kalat and Sindh might seem like tempting targets, but I discovered that wars have a "snowball" effect in this part of the world. If you declare one war, soon all of your neighbors will be at war with you and they'll all want a piece of your nation.

Your best bet seems to be to build up your forces (irregulars are your best bet because you don't have much money), then wait for the first inevitable attack, either from China or the UK. You seem to have a few years at the most before the attacks start coming in, probably extended by the number of alliance offers you accept. Don't think these allies will help you, though. They'll all desert you the second either China or the UK look at you funny.

China you can fight off and white peace because their only conduit into your country is a small pass with a supply limit of 3 in the East. They'll mass a large force which will turn into nothing as it walks and waits around, then it can be easily defeated and a peace can be obtained. The UK is a different beast altogether. They'll ask for one of your outlying provinces and you have to give it to them. You don't have a choice. They have more and better forces and they'll simply smash you without hesitation. It's better to get it over with and not lose the soldiers. Worse still, this is ALWAYS true and the UK will ask for another province five years later.

That's why infamy is good. If you've over the infamy limit, the UK will simply contain you instead of conquering you. Their declarations of war are useful, though. Some of the regional powers will declare against you while you're at war with the UK. Quickly peace with the UK by appeasement and then hey -- you're in war against a regional power that's cut off from its allies, and you're bigger than they are. It's a good conquest opportunity.

Lastly, expansion is bad. Why? Well, for your immediate neighbors, you'd love to have them. Nabbing Afghanistan is nothing short of essential. Kalat, Makran, Sindh, and Kutch are just that many more feathers in your cap, but do not take Khiva, Kokand, or Persia (or not all of them, anyway). If you do, you'll share borders with Russia and the Ottomans, and they're just as good as Britain at picking you to pieces. One Great Power was bad enough, and you don't need more problems.

You need to expand at least a little, though. Otherwise Britain will have devoured you inside twenty years without the infamy to distract them. Also, you need to save your diplomatic points. You need them for wargoals and peace settlements.

Here's a picture of my best Panjab in just 1854, 18 years after the game started. I'd taken Afghanistan, Bukkhara, Kalat, Sindh, and bits of Kokand and western Persia, but lost two starting regions to British aggression. After those campaigns up there, I felt like I deserved a medal. I was physically exhausted. Sadly I had to stop it there, since when I reloaded my save the game apparently forgot about all my peace treaties, and a lot of different countries declared war very quickly.

So basically, my question is: does anyone have any more advice? I'm mainly a builder and a developer in V2, not a conquerer, and these were intensely militaristic campaigns. Is it possible to fight off Britain or stop them taking your provinces? How do you take the Indian core provinces from the UK?

Short of the few chronically doomed uncivs in North Africa and elsewhere, I think Panjab might be the hardest country to play as in the whole game, and I'll take any advice I can get. Is the unification of India even possible in a fair vanilla game?

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Yes, I've done it. Panjab -> India is the ultimate challenge. In my opinion, the best way to do it from the position you are in now is to take some of the Chinese provinces that border you. Their large populations will help you get the numbers you need to take on England directly.

This post is half a document of my experience, half a plea for advice.

I've read a number of posts asking about the unification of India. Someone asked what the best country was to attempt the reunification and someone else said they thought Panjab was the best candidate. It has the largest population and army. I shrugged my shoulders and decided to give it a try. I realized the task itself was going to be borderline impossible (becoming a Great Power and forcing Britain out of India seemed daunting enough as was) but I didn't realize just how out of my depth I was.

First of all, Panjab isn't the best candidate for forming India - it's the only candidate. There are only five countries that can form India (excepting Crown From The Gutter events) that aren't British satellites at the start of the game: Sindh, Kutch, Nepal, Sikkim, and Panjab. (Kalat and Makran actually can't.) Of those, all but Panjab are single-region states with 4 brigades or fewer. Sindh has about 500K relevant population and four brigades, Nepal has 250K and four brigades, Kutch has 77K and three brigades, and Sikkim has 14K and just one brigade. These four are either swallowed by more powerful neighbors, notably Britain, with a decade or sphered by Britain, ending their ambitions in India. The former is much more likely than the latter.

Panjab, on the other hand, has three regions and a whopping 2.7 million in population, making it the largest of the Indian states (even including the British vassals). It fields and impressive fifteen brigades at the start of the game with an immediate capacity of 21, which actually puts you pretty high up the leaderboard in terms of troop numbers (13th overall, says the ledger). Your troop count can be driven higher almost immediately by military spending, too.

Nevertheless, it became immediately clear to me that playing Panjab was the hardest challenge I had ever faced as a V2 player, much harder than Hawaii or Korea or any of the other uncivs I had dabbled with. Why? You share borders with the UK, China, and Afghanistan at the start of the game. All of them have stronger armies than you do, and they're all gunning right for you. You don't have the lowest literacy in the game but you can see the bottom from here: at 3.6% lit and less than 1% starting clergy, your research advances at a crawl. You have no diplomatic power, either. It's just those 15 starting brigades between you and oblivion.

I quickly discovered that everything is upside-down in a Panjab game. Infamy is good, offense is defense, and expansion is bad. I'll explain what I mean below.

I played a few games as Panjab. I learned the hard way that you can't open with an attack as Panjab. Immediate expansion might seem tempting. Kalat and Sindh might seem like tempting targets, but I discovered that wars have a "snowball" effect in this part of the world. If you declare one war, soon all of your neighbors will be at war with you and they'll all want a piece of your nation.

Your best bet seems to be to build up your forces (irregulars are your best bet because you don't have much money), then wait for the first inevitable attack, either from China or the UK. You seem to have a few years at the most before the attacks start coming in, probably extended by the number of alliance offers you accept. Don't think these allies will help you, though. They'll all desert you the second either China or the UK look at you funny.

China you can fight off and white peace because their only conduit into your country is a small pass with a supply limit of 3 in the East. They'll mass a large force which will turn into nothing as it walks and waits around, then it can be easily defeated and a peace can be obtained. The UK is a different beast altogether. They'll ask for one of your outlying provinces and you have to give it to them. You don't have a choice. They have more and better forces and they'll simply smash you without hesitation. It's better to get it over with and not lose the soldiers. Worse still, this is ALWAYS true and the UK will ask for another province five years later.

That's why infamy is good. If you've over the infamy limit, the UK will simply contain you instead of conquering you. Their declarations of war are useful, though. Some of the regional powers will declare against you while you're at war with the UK. Quickly peace with the UK by appeasement and then hey -- you're in war against a regional power that's cut off from its allies, and you're bigger than they are. It's a good conquest opportunity.

Lastly, expansion is bad. Why? Well, for your immediate neighbors, you'd love to have them. Nabbing Afghanistan is nothing short of essential. Kalat, Makran, Sindh, and Kutch are just that many more feathers in your cap, but do not take Khiva, Kokand, or Persia (or not all of them, anyway). If you do, you'll share borders with Russia and the Ottomans, and they're just as good as Britain at picking you to pieces. One Great Power was bad enough, and you don't need more problems.

You need to expand at least a little, though. Otherwise Britain will have devoured you inside twenty years without the infamy to distract them. Also, you need to save your diplomatic points. You need them for wargoals and peace settlements.

Panjab in 1854, 18 years after the game started. I'd taken Afghanistan, Bukkhara, Kalat, Sindh, and bits of Kokand and western Persia, but lost two starting regions to British aggression. After those campaigns up there, I felt like I deserved a medal. I was physically exhausted. Sadly I had to stop it there, since when I reloaded my save the game apparently forgot about all my peace treaties, and a lot of different countries declared war very quickly.

So basically, my question is: does anyone have any more advice? I'm mainly a builder and a developer in V2, not a conquerer, and these were intensely militaristic campaigns. Is it possible to fight off Britain or stop them taking your provinces? How do you take the Indian core provinces from the UK?

Short of the few chronically doomed uncivs in North Africa and elsewhere, I think Panjab might be the hardest country to play as in the whole game, and I'll take any advice I can get. Is the unification of India even possible in a fair vanilla game?

 

[Roy Rogers McFreely]

I haven't played Panjab yet, but I intend to.

I think getting sphered by the United Kingdom would be a blessing. It prevents them from taking your land and scares China. If you just spam your way to good relations with the British, wouldn't that increase your chance of getting sphered? Even if you don't get sphered, it's still a nice thing having good relations with your threatening neighbours, since there's more infamy and a prestige hit in declaring war on a "friend" IIRC. The AI does not like infamy and might just go hunting somewhere else.

Now, I know that the two countries are entirely different, but in my current Denmark game i spammed my way to a 200 point relation with both Prussia and Austria, countries that have Casus Belli on me, so they should be eager to attack me. It's now 1856 and I still haven't seen a DoW from anyone. I'm guessing - only guessing - that this might work with Panjab as well. Of course, you could be unlucky and see a DoW within the first months of the game, and in that case you're probably done for.

I've seen AI Panjab sphered by AI United Kingdom, and that meant survival for Panjab. As for getting to GP status to break the sphere and kick the British out - I have no idea. Better get some of the "WC with Zulu" guys in here!

Oh, by the way - I think Sindh is a "reasonable" country for Indian unification (and by reasonable I mean: 'insane, but hey, at least Sikkim is worse!'). They don't have the scary neighbours that Panjab have, there are smaller nations to pick on and access to the sea! But it sure is going to be hard and way beyond my capabilites in this game.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I haven't played Panjab yet, but I intend to.

I think getting sphered by the United Kingdom would be a blessing. It prevents them from taking your land and scares China. If you just spam your way to good relations with the British, wouldn't that increase your chance of getting sphered?

That was my first thought too, but apparently your good offices aren't so good at what they do. You only start out with a handful of diplomatic points and negative relations with the UK, and you gain diplomatic points at .1 a month. I tried the diplo-spam strategy, but the UK seems to declare war before you can get it too positive and that of course sends your relations into the catastrophic red. I think over time, you might be able to convince another GP (France, maybe?) to sphere you. That would ward off attacks and solve the leaving-the-sphere problem. Still, I haven't managed it.

Yes, I've done it. Panjab -> India is the ultimate challenge. In my opinion, the best way to do it from the position you are in now is to take some of the Chinese provinces that border you. Their large populations will help you get the numbers you need to take on England directly.

That's a bold strategy, but I don't quite see how to execute it. How do you fight China on their own turf? When you send soldiers through to capture their provinces, you run up against the same supply limit problem they had attacking Panjab. You're left with a crippled force to fight China's hundreds of brigades. Worse still, you can't build up over time because I'm quite sure their tech advances faster than yours, so the longer you wait the more formidable China becomes as an enemy.

 

[bman1234]

That's a bold strategy, but I don't quite see how to execute it. How do you fight China on their own turf? When you send soldiers through to capture their provinces, you run up against the same supply limit problem they had attacking Panjab. You're left with a crippled force to fight China's hundreds of brigades. Worse still, you can't build up over time because I'm quite sure their tech advances faster than yours, so the longer you wait the more formidable China becomes as an enemy.

Haven't done this playing Punjab, but played a game starting as the Mogul Empire (Mughalistan)--when China declared war as soon as I could I countered with a war goal of annex Xinjiang. First war I had to settle for a White Peace, but the second Chinese war the Chinese gave up and let me annex Xinjiang, just before I was ready to settle for another white peace. You are right, you lose large numbers of men in China, but I guess I was in a much better situation as Mughalistan than just Punjab because I had a lot more brigades.

 

[Kyoumen]

That's a bold strategy, but I don't quite see how to execute it. How do you fight China on their own turf? When you send soldiers through to capture their provinces, you run up against the same supply limit problem they had attacking Panjab. You're left with a crippled force to fight China's hundreds of brigades. Worse still, you can't build up over time because I'm quite sure their tech advances faster than yours, so the longer you wait the more formidable China becomes as an enemy.

You don't have to, really. You can get 25 warscore from repeatedly crushing the Chinese troops as they enter your mountainous provinces, which will usually persuade them to give you some land (it worked for me as Bukkhara anyway, and I don't see why it wouldn't with Punjab).

That won't solve the problem with the British, though. You just can't fight them successfully, even luring them into attacking mountains with a defensive general at best puts you even in numbers killed, and you can't replace the numbers like the Brits can. I've seen AI Punjab get white peaces out of them, though, which is interesting. I suspect they avoid conflict and just liberate regions as the UK moves on to take the next one (so you'll need to be lucky enough to get a general with +speed, though you liberate regions faster than they get conquered, which also helps), until eventually the UK gets distracted and WPs. Probably your only realistic strategy, along with hoping the UK falls to rebels later... and the problem is, that's a lot of "hopes".

 

[Achab]

Yay, Panjab bragging time!

This is my only Panjab from the RSP multiplayer campaign. Ver 1.4b 27-06, no mods.

Promoted soldiers most of the time.
Recently civilized and became a GP.
Two victorious wars with China, just for the Prestige from battles, huge!
Helped human Persia to annex Afghanistan and Dai Nam to get back their territory from China.
Tried to keep relations with UK above 0 so far, but they are going to attack me soon.
Currently annexing Sindh and Kalat, Bukhara decided to help them and then their master Russia intervened.

 

[Caewil]

Actually, playing as a british satellite may be the better option. You stop being a satellite once you become a GP. You can't attack anyone but on the other hand, the UK won't be gunning for you.

 

[Achab]

Actually, playing as a british satellite may be the better option. You stop being a satellite once you become a GP. You can't attack anyone but on the other hand, the UK won't be gunning for you.

One state minors can't become GPs. Satellites can't add WGs to get more land. So the only indian UK satellite with more than one state is Hyderabad ... and it's a real pain just to civilize it.

 

[Roy Rogers McFreely]

One state minors can't become GPs. Satellites can't add WGs to get more land. So the only indian UK satellite with more than one state is Hyderabad ... and it's a real pain just to civilize it.

Maybe it could be done with Travancore and... Beroda (is that it? - the one east of Kutch) as you are theoretically able to get to SP status and colonize. If don't know if this is possible before everything gets colonized or even before the game ends, though.

 

[Achab]

Maybe it could be done with Travancore and... Beroda (is that it? - the one east of Kutch) as you are theoretically able to get to SP status and colonize. If don't know if this is possible before everything gets colonized or even before the game ends, though.

You very right here, the two indian minors you mentioned are coastal, so they actually have theoretical chance to become GPs

 

[Roy Rogers McFreely]

You very right here, the two indian minors you mentioned are coastal, so they actually have theoretical chance to become GPs

I'm gonna try Travancore just for the heck of it. They have a nice place under the Indian sun.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Yay, Panjab bragging time!

This is my only Panjab from the RSP multiplayer campaign. Ver 1.4b 27-06, no mods.

Promoted soldiers most of the time.
Recently civilized and became a GP.
Two victorious wars with China, just for the Prestige from battles, huge!
Helped human Persia to annex Afghanistan and Dai Nam to get back their territory from China.
Tried to keep relations with UK above 0 so far, but they are going to attack me soon.
Currently annexing Sindh and Kalat, Bukhara decided to help them and then their master Russia intervened.

How have you stopped Britain from attacking you? Is it being played by a player? In my games, Britain always hit me within a few years, regardless of how much I added to my military. (I also note that you seem to have 278 brigades, which is probably part of what's stopping them, but even if I focuses soldiers immediately in the beginning, Britain hit me.

Maybe it could be done with Travancore and... Beroda (is that it? - the one east of Kutch) as you are theoretically able to get to SP status and colonize. If don't know if this is possible before everything gets colonized or even before the game ends, though.

I suspect it's actually quite easy to Westernize as an Indian state, because you can get the military power so easily. Prestige is easier for a combatant power, but hey, there are techs too. I think getting the naval range and the necessary techs to begin the colonization of Africa would be the hardest part.

 

[ajm317]

I have turned Panjab into India in 1.4. It was...tiring. The requirements are obnoxious. In addition to all of India and Pakistan you need Tibet, the Maldives, Sri Lanka, the Andamans...

I had to replay the first 10 years or so a few times to nail down the opening. For whatever reason, in all my attempts the UK never attacked me. They sphered me after a while instead. I'm not sure why the UK is attacking you and ignored me. I did use DP's to raise my relations with them whenever I could.

I opened as follows:

1. Signed an alliance with Kalat.

2. Annexed Sind.

3. In my experience the alliance with Kalat will scare Afghanistan off a bit. China will attack you though. This is a good thing because you can easily farm their armies for prestige.

In my playthrough I only built infantry, but in retrospect I should have built as many irregulars as I could. I did not have access to small arms in the early game, meaning I couldn't recruit new units and my org regain and reinforcement rates were very slow.

4. From that point I just sat on my hands for a while (may have had to fight Afghanistan and China again, can't recall) and westernized.

From that point on I eventually became a great power (this took a little longer than I thought I would). I wasn't in a position to start fighting the UK until the 1880's. Once I did the only way I could get everything done within the game time frame was to break truces repeatedly. For the first couple wars you can grab a few states just fighting in India, but an invasion of the British Isles will be necessary to get sufficient war score to get anything done in the later wars.

You can turn Delhi into a state, so that should be your first target (it has a population of over 5 million). Once you nab that it's just a matter of grinding it out. Once you form India you can grant statehood to everything almost immediately. I did this in 1920. The rest of the game was just clicking the expand factory button ~100 times every year until I became #1 in overall score sometime in the 30's. I had some pretty obnoxious communist revolts for a while due to unemployment.

In terms of research I looked almost exclusively at culture techs early on. The education efficiency and research bonus techs were top priority. Getting your pathetic literacy up is a looong process (I think I had encourage clergy in Lahore for the first 50 years or something). I think I also picked up a power generation tech or two along the way. Then it was all army techs to fight the British.

I did not expand outside of India. This was both to keep infamy down and as a "house rule".

 

[Achab]

How have you stopped Britain from attacking you? Is it being played by a player? In my games, Britain always hit me within a few years, regardless of how much I added to my military. (I also note that you seem to have 278 brigades, which is probably part of what's stopping them, but even if I focuses soldiers immediately in the beginning, Britain hit me.

UK was AI.

I spend every diplomatic point to improve relations with the UK. Also I kept my BB below 5. They attacked me soon after I annexed Sindh and Kalat, as my BB was 15+. I managed them to sign White peace after destroying all 3 armies they had in India, but the causalties were terrible, 10:1 in their favour of course.

Then I did my best to bring the relations back above 100, and they didnt attacked me for the remainder of the game.

Also I encountered the bug which caused my Panjabian population to assimilate to the other indian pops, so that was why I decided to not form India early. Instead I "colonized" China and waited till 1920 when I triggered the "Crown from Gutter" event in Gwailor.

 

[marnues]

UK was AI.
Also I kept my BB below 5. They attacked me soon after I annexed Sindh and Kalat, as my BB was 15+.

I didn't think the AI considered a BB of 5 any differently than 24.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I have turned Panjab into India in 1.4. It was...tiring. The requirements are obnoxious. In addition to all of India and Pakistan you need Tibet, the Maldives, Sri Lanka, the Andamans...

I had to replay the first 10 years or so a few times to nail down the opening. For whatever reason, in all my attempts the UK never attacked me. They sphered me after a while instead. I'm not sure why the UK is attacking you and ignored me. I did use DP's to raise my relations with them whenever I could.

Hm... I'm playing vanilla 1.3, not 1.4. Is there a difference in the diplomatic points total/gain rate for Panjab between the two? In 1.3 you start with 2 or something and gain .1 a month. Or else, maybe a combination of heavy militarization and diplo-spamming England is enough to dissuade them from attacking you.

 

[ajm317]

Hm... I'm playing vanilla 1.3, not 1.4. Is there a difference in the diplomatic points total/gain rate for Panjab between the two? In 1.3 you start with 2 or something and gain .1 a month. Or else, maybe a combination of heavy militarization and diplo-spamming England is enough to dissuade them from attacking you.

I don't think there is any difference in DP generation for uncivs in 1.4. I didn't really militarize much either. I used the encourage officers NF on Lahore until I got 0.2% of the population as officers then spent most of the rest of the time with the encourage clergy NF on. I think I used the soldiers one briefly.

It's possible that there is some subtle effect in 1.4 that rearranges the UK's priorities enough to get them to leave you alone.

 

[anomanderus]

This reminds me of my Liberia campaign.... too bad for me the French AI rushed the last tech for colonization as soon as it was available, but I did pretty well with conquering Sokoto.

Panjab seems like it would be a challenge, but almost 99% theoretically impossible like Liberia is. You just need to keep at it and keep thinking, chances will present themselves for the warriors of the Khalsa, and Sikhism will spread from Delhi all the way to Mumbai.

 

[ajm317]

This reminds me of my Liberia campaign.... too bad for me the French AI rushed the last tech for colonization as soon as it was available, but I did pretty well with conquering Sokoto.

Panjab seems like it would be a challenge, but almost 99% theoretically impossible like Liberia is. You just need to keep at it and keep thinking, chances will present themselves for the warriors of the Khalsa, and Sikhism will spread from Delhi all the way to Mumbai.

It's not "99% theoretically impossible". Actually as uncivs go Panjab is quite strong. You do however need some luck in that the UK can't attack you too early or too often.

However once you have time to tech up it's not that bad. Just long and tedious.