After playing through the demo a bit and being able to fully understand the mechanics of the game, it still appears that the ottoman tech group is going to hurt the late game Ottoman Empire more than it should. A player must westernize to keep up with the techs of their neighbors leaving a gap where the Ottoman Empire is going to be hurt or have to play defensively. However, that should not necessarily be the case. The Orthodox historiography of the Ottoman Empire cites three main issues that caused the decline and fall of the Ottoman Empire. Trade Routes, which are covered in game, poor quality Sultans in the later period, which are covered in game, and the ulema, which could be covered quite properly in the game using existing mechanics but are currently not. Now the ulema were essentially the scholars of the Ottoman Empire and their conservative influence did a great deal to retard the intellectual growth of the Empire. It would have taken a very smart sultan actively combating the influence to keep them from slowing the growth of the ottoman Empire and keeping it at European levels. However, barring other event based modifiers, and assuming that the Ottomans continue to have western neighbors, the best a sultan can do is a 110% rate. However, if the base rate for the Ottoman tech penalty was reduced to 115% rather than 125%, it would allow the Ottoman Empire to potentially stay toe to toe with his neighbors. The Ottoman Empire, as much of a boogyman in history they are made out to be, were a very western nation and it would be a shame to hurt them unfairly in the late game. It should be possible, although extremely difficult, to remain toe to toe with the west without westernizing, as the current system makes it very difficult.
The Ottoman Tech Group
- Thread starter Connor Mulhern
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Does westernizing only change the tech group of a nation? Or will we see an Ottoman Empire with British Units like those red skirt guys you could pick in EU3? I would not mind having to switch to western tech group if the existing units would then automatically get the buff to be on equal level with european ones without changing them totally.. I hate nothing more than immersion breaking units on a country's unit roster.
In EU3 the changing of the units was the main reason for me to never westernise as non european nations (until they seperated tech westernisation and military westernisation).
In EU3 the changing of the units was the main reason for me to never westernise as non european nations (until they seperated tech westernisation and military westernisation).
I kept up in military tech just fine. I'm certain I would have caught up in the other 2 if I had stopped expanding so much. Once you can afford +3 advisors, the world is your oyster (and I could in the demo). 10% is really nothing!
And the other countries can also afford it, meaning that you will still fall behind. As a European nation you would be miles ahead. 10% can make a huge difference over time (After a half dozen tech levels you could have bought another tech with western tech), and anyway the Ottoman Empire should be more of a Sunni Russia than a slightly improve malamukes.
Not the taxation by plunder in the Balkans resulting in chronically underdeveloped land and a christian population that would love to assist any invader?
Even a uncaring russia would see a aristocrat take it over and care enough about the land not to plunder it to starvation all the time, with that same family staying there and their fortune depending on how the land produced in the future.
Meanwhile in the ottoman empire, land was auctioned out to the highest bidder who could then rape, pillage and plunder as much as they ever saw fit in an effort to recover the expenses of the right of raping the land of anything worth stealing.
Even a uncaring russia would see a aristocrat take it over and care enough about the land not to plunder it to starvation all the time, with that same family staying there and their fortune depending on how the land produced in the future.
Meanwhile in the ottoman empire, land was auctioned out to the highest bidder who could then rape, pillage and plunder as much as they ever saw fit in an effort to recover the expenses of the right of raping the land of anything worth stealing.
Who is even in the Ottoman Tech Group? Minus the obvious two other Turks? You can't play catch up in that tech group.
The West European tech player can rush to Government 10, unlock his three idea slots, and then max out three seperate ideas (one for each kind of power) and then he can start upgrading tech again after maxing out three whole ideas.
We don't know the cost modifier for someone with outdated tech. I was only two techs behind most people in the western euro group and I had a -15% neighbour bonus! What happens if your 5 or 10 levels behind? It's probably extremely easy to catch up and once you catch up, you'll have some really nice maxed out ideas.
The economic underdevelopment of the Balkans was caused by the isolation of the Ottoman Empire from Western European and the shift of the heart of Europe to the Atlantic and due to frequent wars in the area, rather than by a policy of plunder in the Balkans. In fact the minorities of the balkans only really were hurt later on with the peak of the population being around the 1600s and slowly declining as the empire fell apart. Also the fact that there were national awakenings in the balkans means that the supposed ethnic unrest in the Ottoman Empire was a lot less common than you claim
No, but due to the high costs of a multi ethnic empire and coring, it might seriously affect the free amount of points
You must be forgetting the penalty if you think that other nations will seriously out tech you. It's costs +10%/year for every year ahead you purchase a tech over its designated discovery year. It will severely limit other nations from getting "miles ahead". I would guess that Europeans could really only be one level of tech ahead if you're focusing tech (and most won't be).
As I said, I kept up with military tech (even was ahead of some Europeans), had a vast empire (check the Post your demo empires thread), and a +3, +1, +2 level advisors. The Ottomans, with -33% coring naturally (which can be increased with diplomatic ideas) will have no problem with admin costs. Multi-ethnic is not as much of an issue as multi-religious, but with access to Jerusalem and Defender of the Faith, there are no problems to be had anywhere with the Ottomans.
They really don't need any help.
As I said, I kept up with military tech (even was ahead of some Europeans), had a vast empire (check the Post your demo empires thread), and a +3, +1, +2 level advisors. The Ottomans, with -33% coring naturally (which can be increased with diplomatic ideas) will have no problem with admin costs. Multi-ethnic is not as much of an issue as multi-religious, but with access to Jerusalem and Defender of the Faith, there are no problems to be had anywhere with the Ottomans.
They really don't need any help.
You will only fall behind the nations of the Western tech group, that possibly cannot be said to the nations belonging to another tech, as they will never reach the level of the Western tech nations.
Worse, they can fall behind more than they are supposed to be, because of incompetent leaders.
I agree with Connor's posts, it's the wars that contribute the most for decline in technological progress.
I think the whole tech system is flawed. Prosperity, inventions, good relations with other nations and a peaceful medium are the key things towards a technological breakthrough. So these should be kept in mind, not some arbitrarily defined tech groups which ultimately serve towards the superiority of the nations belonging to that group.
I'm saying as the Ottomans, you will not fall behind any nations, including Western. It just takes a lack of piety and and a whole lot of money, which the Ottos have capability for. I would argue that many Eastern tech nations also have the capability to keep up in tech.
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Depends on if we're talking the unit stats or unit appearances.
Iirc, Westernisation changes the former but not the latter, at least if it works as in EU3
I'd rather have all nations the same base cost for tech progression, but with events or modifiers regarding the better or worse bureaucrocy and competence of leaders, along with such features I have mentioned above can basically have a good or bad effect on top of the base cost.
There are some other factors too. Most advances don't come out of the blue, but instead are built on what other people have done previously. Because of that literacy (to learn from other people) & book publishing (so the original person can share what they know) are important. Something like the literacy of your country is largely out of your control, takes hundreds of years to change, and was already largely pre-set at the start of the game (you can westernise). Book publishing is much more efficient with certainly types of languages.
To me that's the sort of thing which needs tech groups to represent. Just like the game must simulate that Istanbul was richer than Mainz, I'd expect it to show that in Germany they had advantages in literacy & printing.
I'm not saying the whole tech groups should be removed, I'm saying the base costs for progression for all the tech groups should be equalised. You can still have Western Tech and the other techs. You'll have the same speed of tech progression but every other tech will still be somewhat inferior to the western tech.
I think current system (8 lvl gap) will help AI with proper westernization.
Without it in mid/late game (especially in MP) all non westernized nations will be destroyed so easy...
There was no policy of plunder. Plunder was a side effect of the taxation system of auctioning out the right to tax as much as the winner saw fit.
You get western unittypes like red coates etc. The unit-look, the sprites, is staying osmanic.
In my opinion it is generally a problem that paradox expects that every nation eventually westernized. The Osmans have one of the best none-western techtrees. The worst situation have the nomad/horde fractions.
Remove all piety (10% cheaper tech), get the technology advisors (10% cheaper tech), go innovative (5% cheaper tech and Monarch Point events) and aristocracy (25% cheaper military tech), pray for good rulers.
You should be able to keep up that way. In the demo, I kept up and stayed ahead in military while falling behind in diplomatic (Don't convert cultures/religions and use the Ghazi Ottoman idea to gain religious unity to save points) and administrative points. I did not really try to save points in any way during my playthroughs (I converted religions and sometimes also cultures for testing purposes), and because the demo is only 28 years long I could not get any good longterm testing results.
You should be able to keep up that way. In the demo, I kept up and stayed ahead in military while falling behind in diplomatic (Don't convert cultures/religions and use the Ghazi Ottoman idea to gain religious unity to save points) and administrative points. I did not really try to save points in any way during my playthroughs (I converted religions and sometimes also cultures for testing purposes), and because the demo is only 28 years long I could not get any good longterm testing results.