The Origin of the German, Huns and Bulgar people

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Hibernian

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As for Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Onoghurs being the forefathers of modern Bulgarians and Hungarians, we run again into conflicting evidence. According to the confused tales of medieval chroniclers, they were all splits from the Huns. But modern Hungarian is a Finno-Ugric language, related to modern Finnish, Estonian, etc. And among all the theories that I've read about the origins of the Bulgarians, I don't recall one stating them as speaking a Finno-Ugric language (maybe I'm mistaken, so if anybody knows better, please correct me). So we run again into a conundrum.

Yeah, the most popular theory seems to be that Hunnic, Old Bulgar and Avar are part of their own branch of the Turkic family, of which the only modern survivor is Chuvash (probably descended from the Volga Bulgars). The Hungarians are definitely not associated with these Turkic groups (well they certainly had contact with them, but a different origin).

And in the case of the Avars, things are equally confused. Based on the small linguistic evidence preserved in medieval sources, historians consider Avars to have been of Turkic stock. But contemporary Avar language (spoken in the Russian republic of Daghestan) is a Northern Caucasian language.

Pretty sure the Caucasian Avars have no relation to the Avars who lived in Hungary, it's just a coincidence of names. I think there's fairly good evidence that the Northeast Caucasian languages have been native to that region for a very long time.
 
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Enravota

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As for Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Onoghurs being the forefathers of modern Bulgarians and Hungarians, we run again into conflicting evidence. According to the confused tales of medieval chroniclers, they were all splits from the Huns. But modern Hungarian is a Finno-Ugric language, related to modern Finnish, Estonian, etc. And among all the theories that I've read about the origins of the Bulgarians, I don't recall one stating them as speaking a Finno-Ugric language (maybe I'm mistaken, so if anybody knows better, please correct me). So we run again into a conundrum.
You are mistaken :). There's Finno-Ugric theory of the proto-Bulgars as well. The problem is we know close to nothing about the language and religion of the proto-Bulgars, so most of the theories are based on guesswork. Lately, Scytho-Sarmatian theories seem to be becoming the dominant in Bulgarian historiography, displacing the Turkic origin theory, but again the evidence is slim either way. For that matter, we cannot really say if Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Onogurs were culturally homogeneous people or an ad-hoc confederation.

As not to stray too far away from the OP, there are theories that one of the peoples that were involved in the initial formation of Dunabic Bulgaria, the Severs, may have been the remains of Balkan Gothic population, but AFAIK it is a fairly recent thing so not much work has been done on it.
 

Semper Victor

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You are mistaken :).

I feared so :D

There's Finno-Ugric theory of the proto-Bulgars as well. The problem is we know close to nothing about the language and religion of the proto-Bulgars, so most of the theories are based on guesswork. Lately, Scytho-Sarmatian theories seem to be becoming the dominant in Bulgarian historiography, displacing the Turkic origin theory, but again the evidence is slim either way.

I read somewhere once (sorry to be so vague, but it was quite some time ago) that in excavations in one of the Danube Bulgars' capitals, the remains of a (supposedly) religious structure had been identified, and that some specialists saw in it some similarities with Zoroastrian fire temples. It struck me as noteworthy then, and now that you mention those Scytho-Sarmatian theories, it can possibly be related to them.

For that matter, we cannot really say if Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Onogurs were culturally homogeneous people or an ad-hoc confederation.

Yeah, which is as much as we can say for a majority of such groups.

As not to stray too far away from the OP, there are theories that one of the peoples that were involved in the initial formation of Dunabic Bulgaria, the Severs, may have been the remains of Balkan Gothic population, but AFAIK it is a fairly recent thing so not much work has been done on it.

It could very well be so, but it's quite dubious if it will be possible to discern between Germanic residual populations in the Balkans. The Goths were not the only Germanic group in there, at least there were also the Gepidae (and maybe the Herulii too?). Add to that also the remains of the Carpii (of possible Thraco-Dacian stock), Alanic Sarmatians...
 
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Hibernian

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If you believe the Bulgars were Iranic, then how do you explain the Volga Bulgars, who were clearly Turkic? Since the Volga Bulgars and Danubian Bulgars are supposed to have originally been one people before they split off and went in different directions. The modern (Turkic) Chuvash and Volga Tatars are almost certainly (partly) descended from the Volga Bulgars. I'm no expert in linguistics, but Wikipedia says that there are surviving samples of the Bulgar language written in the Old Turkic alphabet, etc.
 

Semper Victor

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Pretty sure the Caucasian Avars have no relation to the Avars who lived in Hungary, it's just a coincidence of names. I think there's fairly good evidence that the Northeast Caucasian languages have been native to that region for a very long time.

Yes, a Turkic ethnicity is the most widely accepted theory for them, but as with most steppe groups, it's based on quite weak evidence. The Magyars did not speak a Turkic language, but we are only sure of it because Hungarians have preserved their language to this day. If we had to guess the Magyars' ethnicity based on some kurgan graves and some Byzantine, Carolingian or Arab chronicles, they would probably have gone directly into the "Turkic" box as well, as the material remains are undistinguishable from, for example, those found in Khazar archaeological sites.

So, the same as Hungarians were Finno-Ugrians that adopted a steppe way of life, it could have happened the same to a northern caucasian people. Or alternatively, maybe the Avars were really Turkic, but the Pannonian plan was once only the westernmost part of their domains, which stretched across the Pontic steppe until the Caucasus (according to East Roman chroniclers) and so it's possible that modern Avars are the remains of the old Avars, having lost their ancient language but still retaining their self-consciousness as a different people. Or maybe there's really no relation at all between caucasian Avars and the ancient Avars. The problem is that we have not enough evidence to really be sure about what theory may be nearer to what actually happened in those centuries.
 

Enravota

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I read somewhere once (sorry to be so vague, but it was quite some time ago) that in excavations in one of the Danube Bulgars' capitals, the remains of a (supposedly) religious structure had been identified, and that some specialists saw in it some similarities with Zoroastrian fire temples. It struck me as noteworthy then, and now that you mention those Scytho-Sarmatian theories, it can possibly be related to them.
AFAIK there were eternal flames in the temples and some Byzantine chronists stated that the proto-Bulgars worshipped the celestial bodies. It's a bit of a jump though to make parallels to Zoroastrianism or older Iranic religions on the basis of that evidence alone. There are a some (in the single digits) references to Tangra, but all of those are from the time of Krum's dynasty, so it is again unknown if it can be projected earlier. I guess the possibility of fire worshipping Turkic tribes and Tengrist Sarmatians is also on the table. Oh, I also forgot to mention in my earlier post that there are autochthonous Thracian origin theories as well, but those are usually beyond the rainbow and not really taken seriously by academia.

It could very well be so, but it's quite dubious if it will be possible to discern between Germanic residual populations in the Balkans. The Goths were not the only Germanic group in there, at least there were also the Gepidae (and maybe the Herulii too?). Add to that also the remains of the Carpii (of possible Thraco-Dacian stock), Alanic Sarmatians...
It is largely assumed that the Germanic population was marginal by the end of the VII century, with the majority of it moving into Italy with the Gothic conquest. There seems to be a concentration of Germanic toponyms in the general area where the Severs were supposed to be, but those may have come at a later date (i.e. German miner migrants in the high medieval era). The general consensus so far seems to be that the Severs were yet another Slavic tribe, though the evidence for that is more or less the name of a single Sever notable (Slavun) from the late pagan period, during which the population of Bulgaria was culturally homogeneous (as far as a medieval population can be considered homogeneous I suppose).

If you believe the Bulgars were Iranic, then how do you explain the Volga Bulgars, who were clearly Turkic? Since the Volga Bulgars and Danubian Bulgars are supposed to have originally been one people before they split off and went in different directions. The modern (Turkic) Chuvash and Volga Tatars are almost certainly (partly) descended from the Volga Bulgars. I'm no expert in linguistics, but Wikipedia says that there are surviving samples of the Bulgar language written in the Old Turkic alphabet, etc.
Unfortunately, the story of the Volga Bulgars is also not clearly cut. Firstly, the Voga Bulgars are allegedly descended from the Kutrigurs, while the Dunabic Bulgars are supposed to be Unogondur. As I mentioned, it is unclear what the relation between the different tribes was. Secondly, Volga Bulgars did not exist in a vacuum. A cultural fusion akin to the one in Dunabic Bulgaria, but with a different product, is well within the real of the possible. Just like Dunabic Bulgaria had large Slavic population and neighbours and developed a Slavic speaking culture, so did Volga Bulgaria had at least some Turkic speaking population and neighbours. Volga Bulgaria may have also been at least a nominal Khazar vassal for a time. That's another possibility for introduction of a Turkic language, at least as a state language.
Claims of Bulgar origins of the Chuvash and the Volga Tatars should also be taken with a grain of salt. Volga Bulgaria was the established Muslim state in the region. It is unavoidable that, when the modern national identity of those peoples was developed by Chuvash and Volga Tatar intelligentsia parallels to Volga Bulgaria would be made. A bit like the South Slavic Illyrian movement (I guess I need to mention the similarity between Veda Slovena and Cäğfär Taríxı here). There is very little direct evidence to confirm that Volga Bulgarians survived the Mongol invasion and re-emerged as Chuvash and/or Volga Tatars. As far as I'm aware no Bolgar books survived to modernity, so that doesn't give any indication of the vernacular or state language. I'm also not aware of any large body of Runic inscriptions in Volga Bulgaria, but that can also be misleading. Most of the pre-Glagolic and pre-Cyrillic stone carved epigraphs, if not all, in Dunabic Bulgaria are in medieval Greek. AFAIK there are some Runic inscriptions in Dobruja as well, but they have not been deciphered so far.
In a way Volga Bulgars are even a bigger mystery than the Dunabic Bulgars. The second at least had Byzantine chronists writing about them.

The Iranic origin theory, bases itself on the fact the the proto-Bulgars (both on the Volga and on the Danube) were most probably semi-nomadic by the time they settled at their end destination. They were building keeps and fortresses, as well as growing some crops. That lifestyle is closer to the Sarmatian tribes on the Pontic steppe in that period of time than to the Turkic tribes, which were mostly still fully nomadic at that point. Though again that's not really absolute proof either way, Turkic tribes could have picked up those habits as well as the Sarmatians did.
IMHO, as a casual reader and not part of academia, the biggest problem with the Turkic origin theory in Bulgaria ATM is that it was the established and accepted theory for about a century, so its proponents prefer to go the easy way and speak from the position of authority. That becomes problematic since the theory, as is, was formulated during the early XX century, when most of the archaeological finds we have now were simply not yet discovered. So a revision that fits the (not really that) new evidence with the theory seems to be in order.
 
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DarthJF

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Linguistic evidence goes only so far. There is for example no notable genetic relationship between modern Finns and Hungarians, despite the linguistic connections.

So Hungarians might well have been originally non-Finnic people picking up the language somewhere along the way, or they might have originated from a Finnic tribe, but later absorbed so many newcomers that in the end there was no genetic trace left of the original core group. There's simply no way to tell.
 
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Semper Victor

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Linguistic evidence goes only so far. There is for example no notable genetic relationship between modern Finns and Hungarians, despite the linguistic connections.

So Hungarians might well have been originally non-Finnic people picking up the language somewhere along the way, or they might have originated from a Finnic tribe, but later absorbed so many newcomers that in the end there was no genetic trace left of the original core group. There's simply no way to tell.

About genetic evidence, I can tell about a personal experience. A university team here in Catalonia sent once to my father a letter asking him for his collaboration in a genetical study they wanted to undertake, gathering data about the genetical background of individuals that shared the same surnames. The study was limited to Catalan surnames (they are far fewer and more specific than Castillian surnames, which makes studying them easier), and the surname I share with my father is quite usual in Catalan though not very abundant. So he said yes, and sent them a sample of spit and then we mostly forgot about it. Some months later, the university got again in touch with him giving him the keys to access the website where they were uploading the results of the study as they obtained them.

The study was centered about haplogrups. As mutations follow generally a tree structure, it's possible to climb up the haplogroup tree until you find the original mutation. The purpose of the study was to gather genetical data in order for historians to study if hypotheses for the origins of surnames are supported by those data or not. For example, it's quite known that the surnames "Salom" or "Maymó" (found in Majorca) are of Hebrew origin, so the study in their case wanted to ascertain if the individuals that nowadays bear those surnames have in their genetical codes haplogroups common in the Middle East.

The first surprise in our case was that in my father's case, he shares no haplogroups with any other of the individuals in the study he shared the same surname with. And the second surprise was to know that he (we) share a haplogroup that, although very rare in the Iberian peninsula, is relatively common in northern Italy/southern Switzerland and extremely common in.....Bashkortostan :rofl:

Maybe I can raise a claim to be great Khan of the Bashkirs? :laugh: Interpretation of those results is....well, I'm quite at a loss of words for it. Maybe a horny Italian went to hunt bears to the southern Urals and decided to settle there? Maybe it was a horny proto-Bashkir who came to south-western Europe?
 
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chepaeff

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Maybe I can raise a claim to be great Khan of the Bashkirs? :laugh: Interpretation of those results is....well, I'm quite at a loss of words for it. Maybe a horny Italian went to hunt bears to the southern Urals and decided to settle there? Maybe it was a horny proto-Bashkir who came to south-western Europe?

Hmm. Some Bashkirs went with future Magyars to Hungary. Not that long a journey from there, dear neighbour :D
 

Scythian Khagan

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Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Khazars, Onogurs (the confederation which Magyars were also in, Magyars's social structure is Turkic, their language is half-Turkic, still today), Pechenegs, Cumans, Uyghurs all are Turkic peoples which has great descendants today. These are well-known, well-documented facts, not "Scythian-like" uncertain origins. When it comes to Turkic peoples of the steppes it suddenly becomes "uncertain" but when it comes to Scythians or Thracians it suddenly becomes "certainly, well-knownly, well-documentedly" Iranian, how strange is that. Look at you lol, discussing for 3 pages for nothing. Nothing you can do about a "fact" rather than a "theory" which you funnily call it. Just don't be funny, don't be childish. Get over it, Huns, even with their rulers' name and culture, the elites, were of Turkic heritage, Bulgars who are doubtlessly Turkic, were descendants of them and Gök-Türk Khaganate or Turkic/Turkish Khaganate of Göktürks were the descendants of Asian Huns aka Xiongnu or Xunyu. Please shut your stubborn ignorant mouth, and leave it to the scholars, big mouth nonsense newcomers of the history of Turks. These facts are more than 150 year-old to Turks or Turkic peoples, and some of Hungarians, it's new to you because of games like this, look at you, you are talking it on the game forum. Sigh these stubborn ignorant Eurocentric Europeans...
 
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AjayAlcos

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The first surprise in our case was that in my father's case, he shares no haplogroups with any other of the individuals in the study he shared the same surname with. And the second surprise was to know that he (we) share a haplogroup that, although very rare in the Iberian peninsula, is relatively common in northern Italy/southern Switzerland and extremely common in.....Bashkortostan :rofl:

Maybe I can raise a claim to be great Khan of the Bashkirs? :laugh: Interpretation of those results is....well, I'm quite at a loss of words for it. Maybe a horny Italian went to hunt bears to the southern Urals and decided to settle there? Maybe it was a horny proto-Bashkir who came to south-western Europe?
Hmm. I heard some Bashkirs went west as part of the Russian Imperial Army during the War of the Sixth Coalition. Might be where part of your origins lay ;)
 

Kazanov

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Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Khazars, Onogurs (the confederation which Magyars were also in, Magyars's social structure is Turkic, their language is half-Turkic, still today), Pechenegs, Cumans, Uyghurs all are Turkic peoples which has great descendants today. These are well-known, well-documented facts, not "Scythian-like" uncertain origins. When it comes to Turkic peoples of the steppes it suddenly becomes "uncertain" but when it comes to Scythians or Thracians it suddenly becomes "certainly, well-knownly, well-documentedly" Iranian, how strange is that. Look at you lol, discussing for 3 pages for nothing. Nothing you can do about a "fact" rather than a "theory" which you funnily call it. Just don't be funny, don't be childish. Get over it, Huns, even with their rulers' name and culture, the elites, were of Turkic heritage, Bulgars who are doubtlessly Turkic, were descendants of them and Gök-Türk Khaganate or Turkic/Turkish Khaganate of Göktürks were the descendants of Asian Huns aka Xiongnu or Xunyu. Please shut your stubborn ignorant mouth, and leave it to the scholars, big mouth nonsense newcomers of the history of Turks. These facts are more than 150 year-old to Turks or Turkic peoples, and some of Hungarians, it's new to you because of games like this, look at you, you are talking it on the game forum. Sigh these stubborn ignorant Eurocentric Europeans...
Why necroing a six years old topic only to be aggresive like that?
 
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Andrelvis

The Last Ghibelline
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